Freelancing vs working in a company: which do you choose?

Welcome to AM Visuals podcast. Our first episode here. And what are we talking about today, Jay? Today we'll be talking about freelancers and working for a company working with Vas. And should you provide roles to your clients?

Oh, it has a doozy. I have much to say about that one at the end there. All right. Welcome, everyone. Welcome to episode EP1 of the AM Visuals podcast.

Cue music. All right, so the first topic that we got on, uh, on hand at the moment is freelancing versus working for a company. Which do you choose? Is it better for you? Do you have what it takes to become a your own boss?

So this is um, this is a topic that is very close to my heart because I've tried both. I've been on both ends of the spectrum. So the opportunity. So freelancing is actually a great opportunity. If you want to work for yourself, you have the flexibility, the freedom.

You set your own price. You work on your own terms. But I think there's a huge but in the sense of like owning your own business and freelancing because you need to have the resiliency to, to, to, uh, to go the long for, for the long yard, you know what I mean? So tell us, tell us, tell us, tell us. How did you get started with, I guess, freelancing.

Um, what were you doing before that? What made you jump into freelancing? And how did I guess the business come about where it is now? Now we're talking about AM Visuals, how it came to becoming like a six man crew now, right? Um, how did I start freelancing?

I literally just picked up a camera. I just wanted to to explore this avenue, my hobby, and just wanted to, um, to make a living out of it. Right. And everything that I was doing before, I did not like it. So I decided, look, look, this is my hobby.

I love what I love what I do with it. I've been learning it for about ten years now. It's time to pick up and and and go with it. Right. So it's thanks to Covid that everything happened.

I just jumped ship and just started. I started my freelancing freelancing career. Look, look where you are now. So I guess for some, I guess background or some background contacts. Um, you initially started working at a camera shop?

Yeah, yeah. That's correct. So now when you start freelancing, this is what I've come to understand. Freelancing. Um, there's a lot.

There's a lot of, like, glamour that goes behind it. People think that owning your own business, freelancing, you make a ton of money on your own term with, like, whenever you want to work, you just get out of bed and and don't have to do anything half the day. And you work for like an hour and you make like $1 million, right? It's it's not the case, but it's it's not the case at all. Like, freelancing is about, um, you know, the, the the whole feast and famine and you and I, we both, we both understand it.

Like when times are good, times are really good. But when, when the famine comes, we're like dirt poor. And this is what I found out with, with, um, uh, with freelancing. And to be able to combat that in the initial stages of my career, I literally had to work part time jobs and night jobs and like weekend jobs just to be able to, to to fund the career that that I'm, um, lucky enough to be in right now. So.

Yeah. So first camera shops you're talking about like, uh, weekend weddings, uh, little birthday parties, all those little things that we don't usually do anymore here at Am. Visuals. Yeah. We don't we don't really do personal events anymore, guys.

And if you want to book us, um, we'll have to happily decline because, um. Yeah, it's not our thing. We reject you hundred percent of time. 100% of the time. Uh, we're more focussed on the commercial side of things.

Cancel work, uni work. Um, yeah, we enjoy business, which is why we've decided to, uh, niche down. Not quite niche enough, but we've decided to niche down just doing commercial events as it's what we, we enjoy. And that's that's a common theme, I guess, that I've encountered in this industry and in industry that where successful people really say that what they did to kind of grow their business from five, figure six, figure six, figure to seven figure is that they niched down on, on, on one particular thing. So, um, yeah, definitely something that we should we would start.

Is that what you're trying to say to any freelancers out there that are trying to make it in the game? Yeah. Look, um, for example, we've got a friend of event. Actually, the guy got him into videography, David Miller. He owns, uh, Mayday Media.

So he specialises in just a luxury real estate. Right. And from just doing that, he's basically grew his business from a one man show to what's his team now, what, three. About three people. Three now.

Yeah. But then he's also lending all the big name clients in the in that industry and also stealing clients from other. Um, not stealing. I mean, sorry, but like winning other clients from other. Winning over clients the right term.

Yeah. We don't steal in this. In this industry, in the industry, and we know everybody. But what he was able to do because he focussed on just luxury real estate, all the luxury real estate agents started noticing him and started noticing his work. And by, by just niching down, he was able to, you know, build a brand for himself, a name for himself.

And that's a that's a prime example of why you should, uh, niche down on, um. Niche down and become a freelancer. If you, if you know what you need because like the, the topic that we're talking about, like, uh, trying to tie this one in with, uh, David Miller and how he, he came he was a one man show for the last three years. Right? And he posed in six figures easily by himself doing what he does.

But, uh, what Jay is trying to say is that he was able to do so by really focusing on one aspect of videography and not doing anything else on the site. And just like having it pulling himself like left, right and centre to make to make the money. Look, it's tough like I, I do understand that a lot of people think that if they start niching down, that they'll be giving up a lot of the work. It's true. Yes, you will be giving up some work, but then also in turn you'll be seen as the specialist in that market.

Thus. Thus, everyone would then want to work with you within that niche, right? Um, so you. Yes. You're giving up a, I guess, a bigger chunk of the general pie, but you're getting a more specific chunk of that business.

Um, so, yeah, definitely one that's, uh, that's harder said than done, right? That's right. I mean, like working working on a freelancer and, like, figuring out what to niche on. It takes I would I would arguably say yes to figure out, like, what you actually want to do. I mean, at the start when I was freelancing, I was doing everything weddings, food shoots, photography, videography, drone, everything.

right? And you kind of realise that what you like. Right. Yeah. It took.

It took a little while. It took a little while to build the business, but, um. Yeah. Um, the other point I want to touch on with freelancing is that you can't do it all by yourself. Like, you are literally, as a freelancer, you are stretched thin across all departments of the business.

I'm talking about accounting. I'm talking about, um, what is it called? Finance. I'm talking about doing the work and whatnot. So this is another thing that I noticed in my career is that I was not able to do it all.

I spent the last two years freelancing, doing things by myself, and I was not able to find the level of success we are fighting now, and we are still very far from success. Success like the way people think about it. But what I'm when I'm saying success is that I was able to offload a lot of the tasks to other people who are much better at the job that I was doing beforehand. So, for example, you have Jane in the company who understands every single aspect of the company, but he's able to sell that to the customer. He's able to connect.

He's able to find leads and and figure out what people actually need in their business to, to, to to force, to be able to help them out. And we have our technical visionaries, Jerome, in our business who understands cameras, audio, everything. Right. He's basically a. Nerd.

Tech nerd. I work I work around tech nerds there. And then we have our girls with our girls overseas that we'll talk about in a bit, who are very good at editing, uh, to and we, we throw all the work their ways and we were able to we were able to play to our strength. Right. So there's this book.

It's called the E myth. Have you heard of about it? Okay. So the E myth is, um, basically a business book that tries to figure out, like what? Why businesses fail in the first year.

So the the saying goes that 80% of small businesses fail in their first year, and that's usually because people are trying to do too much. All at once. Okay. And they are not patient. Patient enough.

Now, the book actually categorises three people. Three types of personality in the business. Okay. You have the entrepreneur. You have the technician, and you have the manager.

Mm. Oh, there you go. So I haven't I haven't ever heard. Yeah. I've got it like you.

You have to read it because it makes you. It really helps you understand like where you stand in the business. Now, me personally. Me personally. I stand like you don't have to be one or the other or.

Sorry, you don't have to be one or the other, but you can be one or 1 or 2 of of each. Right. All three are very rare. Now, if you talk about David Miller, I reckon he's more of a technician and entrepreneur. Right?

You're a manager and entrepreneur. Like, if you really think about it. And I'm the technician and manager. Okay. So the technician is the guy who understands the work.

He's right deep in it. He's thinking about nothing else but, like, figuring out the best way to attack this job and making it, uh, like finishing it up, right? The manager helps the technician point his prowess, his his technical prowess to a certain degree. Whereas the entrepreneur, he's the visionary in the business. He drives.

He drives people to his drives the business to a certain level. Right. So I think as a freelancer and as a small business owner, you have to understand your personality in the business and offload parts of the business that you are not very comfortable with. So if you're a person that say you're you understand the work, you're very highly technical, but you also know how to manage. Maybe you need a salesperson who drives the business.

And usually CEOs are like at that level. Yeah. So I mean, this book is very, very interesting because it really does help people, um, understand the how to operate a small business and make it past your first year. When do you read this book? Um, I read it like every, every so often.

I've read it every so often. Yeah. I've learned I've got I've got it on. I think you reread it. Yeah.

It's on my. Bed. Like you reread it every so often, or you read it very often. Every so often I bring it like a couple pages and whatnot. So what's mad?

Yeah. Yeah. Look, um, I used to actually read a lot, but at the moment I've been struggling. I don't know if it's because I've just had a kid or what, but I feel like I'm very time poor. And every time I get some downtime, I just don't want to do anything.

Mhm. I think, um, your, your mindset definitely shifts when you're, when you have a kid. Um, I've, I've noticed that myself too. I've gone from really hungry in terms of wanting to everything in the business to oh hey look I think I need some downtime with my kid because I don't want to miss this opportunity because I say the first four years of life is you can't miss that or that's it, because that's they don't go back. They don't go back to being more so.

And I don't expect you. I don't expect you to, to to take that time away. But at the same time, at the same time. Yeah. Like I kind of understand the pain of new parents now in terms of trying to juggle business and, and fatherhood or, or motherhood.

It's tough man. It's like you stress out because like, you stress that your business is not doing well, but then you don't. You want to put more time to your business, but you don't want to. Because you want to put some time in your kid as well. It's fine.

I'm interested. Like, I think we should do an episode on this as well. Like, how do you how do you balance, actually. Like, how do you balance life and business in general? I don't think you do.

I think, um, if you want to be successful in business, I think you got to put everything into it 100%. If you have a problem, though. Because there's so many people. Like you've seen all the prolific, um, entrepreneurs out there, it's either they're good, they are billionaires, they're really good. They do, but they, um, their life sucks.

Yeah. Well, that's that's true. Like, look at Elon Musk. Look at bloody what's his face Jeff Bezos like. Do you want that though.

Do you want that. And that's the question that you have. I've changed like young when I was younger. Yeah. But at the moment I think um, your mindset shifts to like, oh, you want to obviously make enough money to support your family, but also you want a balanced lifestyle.

Yeah. Um, it is it is something that, uh. Look, it's definitely a whole episode in itself, but, um. Yeah, yeah. Let's let's, let's let's definitely deep dive.

Let's back up. Hey, young Jerome, please bank that topic for next time. Yeah. All right, so you've got an article here coming from a council saying that what percentage of small are. It's more of like the source of where I got this from.

Where where like, you know, the how, um, the saying that how 80% of small businesses fell in the first year and it's usually the case where people don't are not very self-aware enough to know where they want to go in terms of, um, of becoming a freelancer. Now, that is not to say like the other part of this, uh, this this section as well is that it's not to say that freelancer is the end all be all you can. You can certainly like, create a great career, have a good life balance, and earn pretty good money by sharing your expertise and and becoming part of a vision that is already there. But by that I mean like finding a company that you really believe in, the people that you really believe in are you. You work well with them and just throw yourself into it.

At the end of the day, if you find a company that values you, you're going to grow with them. You know what I mean? That's true. Look, I think that there's a there's a lot of, let's say, shit talk that goes out there between entrepreneurship and working for someone else. I mean, I.

Was certainly one of those. People. Yeah, I know you were wonderful. I was. Like 100%.

I know, you know, like, for me, too, I can't see myself ever going back to working for someone else because I just value my freedom too much. And how you get the freedom, I believe, is your own business. Obviously you do ridiculous hours. Um, you know, but at the same time, you also have that freedom. But it's, uh.

What? What do you say? It's a curse. It's a curse and a. Blessing and a curse.

Yeah. Double edged sword, basically. Um. But. Yeah.

Look, um, just, I guess, and, and and this topic, uh, freelancing versus, uh, working in company, uh, like Fung said, if you're, if you enjoy what you do and if you if you love working for someone else. Yeah, you just do that. Don't don't worry about all the all the all the hype and the the the shit that goes out there. Yeah. Just be.

Very. Clear. Yeah. Very clear. As long as you're happy and and and if, if you got that family life balance and the work life balance and.

Yeah. Why not? Um, but look, we were talking about managers, technicians and entrepreneurs. Speaking of technicians, our next topic is about working with Vas. So, um, now there's a lot of platforms out there that that helps you find Vas.

And, um, Dale de on LinkedIn, actually, a guy approached me asking me if I needed any Vas. Funny enough, I asked him, uh, hey, what's a value proposition that he could offer? Uh, opposed to what we're currently doing, which is we use a platform to find our own people and. Look. He couldn't really answer that.

So, you know, in short, we're not going to be using him. Was he was he a VA or. No, he was a he was a local Australian that was looking to um, I guess he's a recruiter basically finding Vas for, for, um, for other businesses like ourselves. Oh, interesting. Yeah.

He said that, uh, look, our value proposition is that, you know, we we pay them and in tax and also, um, uh, you know, you vets the, the, um, the recruits, but at the same time, like, look, I can do everything you just mentioned, like, why would I need you? Is it like, I mean, we did spend some time in figuring out the platforms. Yeah, we used to find our own Vas. Yeah. Look, I understand the new businesses or businesses who are looking to start using Vas would probably be interested in.

But with us, we've kind of found, um, we kind of found a method that, you know, that works for us and with me because they'll be working so closely with, with the team. I ideally would like to have, you know, a hands on approach into finding the right people. Look, we've had we've had Vas in the past where I think weren't quite right for the business. Um, and it's really about the attitude if, if attitude and of course, skill sets, but mainly attitude because, uh, are they willing to learn, are they willing to adapt with the business and you know, and what, what that's like. But I have a question for you in regards like I think this this is a question that people will ask a lot of the times is like, what's the difference between getting a VA or getting an onshore staff or someone that's like full time here, right?

Um, well, pros and cons, I guess. Look. Pros and cons of VA. Let's let's go with pros first. Right?

Pros. Obviously. Number one, agency life is expensive in terms of human resources. If you hire or, um, onshore or locals, you'll be basically going bankrupt very quick. Um, um, so basically we've got a team of four VA's overseas who all have their own like special skill sets that that they kind of complement the business or also the skill sets of the team.

Um, and basically, um, for the price of, uh, I'd say one local, you'll be able to pay for the whole team over there. Right. And each obviously there's the skill sets of communication. The workload is a bit different, but you gotta you kind of have to adapt to that and understand and and really manage your expectations of what level you're going to get. But you also have someone here to kind of to be able to QC or quality check the work that's being sent out, because obviously the work that you're going to get is maybe 7,580% of where you needed to be at.

Yeah, yeah. Um, so there's a lot of, um, you know, really controlling and making sure that the work is done properly. I used, um, I used to, uh, I used to read, like, you know, Tim Ferris's book, um, for our workweek. That's where I got the idea of a four hour workweek. Yeah, well, I think I think he said that in one of his podcasts as well, where the four hour workweek is, is a a what's called a, uh, hook to get people to read the book.

So, but, like, there's a lot of value in it. Like, and to help you understand, like, how to work with Vas and whatnot. But like the application of it is very hard. So the concept. No, no, no, the the don't get me wrong, the way I will work with concept is is good.

Like it tells you how to optimise your time and how to, uh, efficiently use other people to get your job done. Um, but just thinking about four out of four hours is nothing. I could sit here making two TikTok videos, and that's four hours gone. I got 24. Hours.

Yeah. No, boy. Ours is nothing, man. I think. Um.

I think what people really want to know as well. Like. But just to. Before I ask this question. Like with a four hour workweek.

Yes. It gets you with the idea of, like, how to optimise your time and be more effective and understand how to, to to to use your stuff more properly. Like, you know, by using I mean how to delegate properly. Uh, so when I, when I read that book, I was like, yeah, VA everything. No, nothing.

Unsure. Like we just work from home and that's it. It doesn't work like that. You need you still need a body of stuff here in Sydney, right? To be able to to to as as middle managers.

Like I was saying before, how he manages to correct the delegate to the technicians. This is what you need to do now. I think, um, regarding Vas. Right. I think one of the big, big questions that people would want to ask you or ask like, how is the question is how do you train the Vas and how do you how do you optimise the workflow?

Um, look, it's a I think the biggest, um, My biggest obstacle is finding the right person that will gel with who you are. For example, I work, I got a VA that I work closely with. I kind of treat her more like a like an EA assistant to myself. So what she does is she helps me with all the social media stuff and any other smaller graphic stuff that I need her to do, and I basically contact her every day. And what I found is that when I was training her, I posted our other team members.

It was so much more easier because she understood she had the skill sets, and she also had an amazing attitude where she was like, yep, I can do this, I can't do this. Hey, can you help me out? So communication is everything really? If they're not able to communicate with you properly and obviously because they're offshore, they're from other countries, their English may not be up to standard. Um, and that will, I guess, in turn affect, um, how you train them.

Um, I remember our very first VA that we hired. Uh, she's still working with us, which is great, but at first I was like, oh, she's struggling. It's hard. It was hard. Like, we sent her the most basic worker.

She. She didn't really get it, um, until, you know, a month on. And then she finally, finally, finally started picking up the work and then, um. Yeah. And she just now.

She's sweet. She just. We just sent her work. I think two months was a sweet spot in terms of, like, training and, like, getting him to understand the ropes and whatnot. Um, well, friends from, uh, from another agency says that usually three months is what what what they need terms of the training time and to determine if they're actually gonna be a good fit for the company.

Um, unfortunately, yes it does. It will require some time and some, some capital to, to train them up. But once you've got them up to speed. And I'm speaking for Jerome here, but he's, he's pretty happy with them. He just sends them work and he just do it.

He doesn't really need to do much. You need to set the process. I think I think that's a that's a lot of, um, the workload as well. It's just, uh, setting them, setting up the process so that they're, they understand everything and then just letting them go off in. Their own way.

I think the other thing that you need to think about is trust. You need to be able to, like, I've seen so many business owners where they don't even trust their staff with the with the cash. Right. Like they always they always think, oh, is that is that person going to cheat me? Or they're going to take my work and go somewhere else and like, uh, take my, the, the things I taught them and create their own business.

But at the end of the day, it's all about how you you want to trust yourself. If you can't trust yourself, you can't trust yourself. And that that's never going to work. You can't trust them. Why do you hire them?

That makes no sense. Yeah. Um, but look how we work in terms of our sourcing processes. We said about, um, like, work examples for them to do our trials that they do. Remember when we're trying to find our copywriter?

Yes, we do hire offshore copywriters because they're amazing. Um, but what we did is we had them go through a couple of tests or rounds of tests and interviews so that we could determine that their skill sets were good and also their personality was good. And when we found them, we just treat them well. When you find a good one, you got to treat them well. Yeah.

That's. Yeah. Yeah I think attitude is is huge. Like I'd rather I'd rather hire someone with lesser skill than someone, um, who has a shit attitude, but like better skills, like, it's easier to work with someone that has good attitude and are willing to learn and willing to communicate. That's a big thing as well.

Yeah. Um, then, you know. We we I guess we can both attest to this in the sense that we, we've had our fair share of hiring, uh, other staff members who are always. No, no, no. Oh.

Good God. Like, yeah, it's just it makes it very difficult when when the client. When the when the staff is like, no, we can't do this or. No, we can't do that because of this. But at the end of the day, like, I know it sounds shit, but I'm hiring to do it.

Just get it. Done, right? Yeah. Um. No, I think that the, the the word, the, the wording is like you are hiring for you to figure out a way.

Yeah. You're not saying no upfront. You you find a way and if it's still can cannot be done then you can say no. You know. What?

To be honest, before, like, I thought this was a cliché when everyone was talking about, hey, look, I want to hire someone that with a can do attitude. I'm like, never understood that. I'm like, oh, it's just, oh, I just can't do attitude. It's such a buzzword. It is such a buzzword.

No. But then you realise, like after you go through that bad experience, you realise what that means. Like, oh crap, okay, that's what it means. And now that, now that we've gone through, we know what to look for. For example, our, our, um, what's called a production lead.

Now he's, he's he's pretty good. Jerome young Jerome, he's he's a. Young. Jerome. He knows how to look for stuff.

You know, he just you tell him to do something, he just gets it done. You know? It's good. It's sweet. It makes everyone's life much easier.

The reason why I guess we hire stuff is because we want to free up our time so that we can focus on more high level stuff or more visionary stuff that we can push to business. Right? If we are always stuck doing the day to day, how do you get anything done? I also want to add as well is that, um, when your your hiring staff, they first ask us as a business owner, we're not here just to make the big bucks, right? We're not here to get all the money.

Like the company makes the money and distributes it to to to the people that are working here. So you know what I mean. Like, you can't think of it. People can't think of it as. We're here to exploit everybody that's under us.

That is not how. That's not how business works. Business doesn't work like that. Right. You know what's funny, though?

Like I've been. You've been hearing all these companies of people saying, hey, look, I make a 500,000. I make a million bucks, but you don't really, like, see all the overheads. Yeah, dude, like, I could say we make, you know, 50 G's a month or 60 G's or 30 G's, like. But then you don't realise that everything goes to, you know, the the rent, the stuff, you know, all the other expenses that we have.

It's. Yeah. It's not really going. To as a, as a business owner. It's a, it's a, it's a totally different like mindset, a totally different lifestyle as well.

Like, you know how if you work for somebody, you know exactly how much you're going to make at the end of the year. Like, uh, that figure defines your, your, like your, your willingness to work for somewhere. But as business owners, there's no clear salary. No it's not. There's no clear salary.

Wait wait wait wait. What salary? You get paid. Oh my God. Um.

No, sir. Look, we're getting a bit sidetracked. I think, again, this is not Jamie Young. Jamie. Another episode.

Another. Put this put this in the notes for the next episode. But, um. Look, Vas, I think you definitely need them because it's so cost efficient. Um, and you just it's just I think it's honestly unsustainable to think that you can manage an agency or a business with just unsure stuff.

It's just the amount of tax and salaries you pay is not sustainable. Um, so look, definitely need Vas to scale your business. Um, if you need any advice on how to hire Vas or any any tips, let us know in the comment section below or reach us. Reach out to us on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, LinkedIn, whatever. Um, and then we'll be more than happy to help you guys out and also offer some, um, yeah, some knowledge.

I gotta, I gotta say though, Like coming back to the whole freelancing and whatnot. It does feel nice to have a team. Oh it does. It does feel nice to have people to bounce ideas off and and like, you know, joking around with, like, working as a as not as sorry as a, as a freelancer, as your own boss and working from home by yourself. Sometimes it gets really boring and you just, you just want sometimes you just have no motivation and don't do anything.

Yeah. Just that you can always get your hand off the work that you're not good at or you enjoy too much. Ta ta ta. Team members actually enjoys doing it or really good at it. That's the best part.

Working together, we are social animal people. We need. We need a team. We need a team like anything that we do. In, in.

Like, yeah. Just need a team. Being conscious of time. Let's move on to the next topic. Topic number three should you provide your roles to clients who ask for them?

No, no no, I say yes. No. All right, all right. Look a minute. I guess a common question that all photographers or videographers get, at least in once in their career, right?

Is should you or can you provide me the rules when the client asks for it? This is an age old, age old argument, though. It's just like it's so hard. Like, every everyone has their own opinions. Honestly, 90% of the things that are of the articles or the the Reddit forums or any other forums I've read, um, online, they all say that, you know, no, they're all they all against them.

But then as a business focussed person, I'm not focussed on the production side. Oh, that's not my that's not my forte. I don't care about the technical side because I hate it. I don't hate it. Okay.

I'm lying guys, I don't hate it. But it's not my my my skill set. But as a business focussed person, mine says yes, you should provide the rules to maintain the relationships between the client. Right. But as a creative, I'm saying no because you're you're taking that like that.

That is such an integral part of my of my job. And you're taking it away. You're giving it to somebody else. But what is the fear that you're scared of? I'm.

I'm like, a lot of the times when I'm giving away roles, I'm afraid that people are gonna edit it in a way that is not representative of my style. Might they might botch it. And they're like, hey, this videographer shot it and someone else might come across and was like, you know, as a referral and look at that work and say like, hey, this this videographer is shit. Yeah, okay. Do you know what I mean?

Look, I understand. I totally understand the argument, but what what, um, what about the argument that, hey, look, let's let's say right scenarios in our story time, guys. Let's say, um, let's say you were hired for a job for just a shoot and dump job. So basically shoot, that means you just shoot and you provide them the roles. That's that's the agreement for the shoot, right?

So they hire you for a day. You shoot the whole day. You provide the roles at the end of the day. The next day they come back to you and say that, hey, look, I want you to edit the roles, right? And then and then you, uh, and then you do, for example.

Right. Okay. It's the same thing, right? And then they got the roles and they can do anything they want with it. Right.

But that's a separate contract in that sense. No, I think I think where the myth or the where the issue lies is the communication part between the client and the and the provider in the sense that if that in the sense that they should have already agreed upon what happened with the raw post shooting, or if they do provide the roles it should that that should be agreed upon. Right? That's correct. I mean, like the the whole the thing is, if you're going to be providing as a creative, when I think about this contractual, um, like scenario here is if you're going to be shooting and dumping and you're providing the raw suit to the client.

They have no right to say that those roles are coming from from a particular person. A lot of these issues, I believe, really lies the solution for these issues lies in agreement, really saying that, hey, but and you're going to chase them up and sue them. I don't know, but look, yeah, it lies in the agreement where you state that, hey, look, I don't provide raws or if you want the raws, I charge you smush. If you if you're worried that they'll take those roles, give it to someone else to edit, and then you do the business. But then again, my argument for that is that if you're really worried about them taking the roles and giving you somewhere else and losing the business, just incorporate the fee in your cost, right?

And then just say, hey, look. Yeah, okay. Say instead of charging 1500, charge 1800. And there's the rules as well. I mean, as, as a like on a business standpoint, it makes sense to provide that as a, as a goodwill gesture because like you do at the end of the day, you do, um, you do provide them good value, which entices them to come back to you and work with you like, uh, in the long run.

Because in this game, especially in this game, like, clientele are very personal people. Yes. Right. So it's not like where you just go go to the shops and buy a piece of gum and go, and you don't think about, like, who sold you that gum? No.

Our reputation means something in this business, right? So, yes. So I will agree, like agree with you in saying that provide the role just for for relationships that are a relationship standpoint. Right. Yeah.

Look for the benefit of the relationship. Sorry. No I think look yes, yes and no. But I think that most of it is, is obviously this whole question is a grey area because it's so vague. Right, in the sense that you could let's say you are Sony, right?

You wouldn't obviously provide the rules to client ask for because you're fucking yours. Excuse my language. Beep your Sony. Um. Right.

Because you can't say no. You got your ground to stand on, right? If they really want to work with it. Yeah, but say you're a freelancer or someone, and then you're doing regular work for a big company, like you're more inclined to say yes, right? I mean.

Yeah, you need to you need you you you you have no leverage. Correct? Yeah. It depends on depends on who you are. Right.

Depends if they really want to work with you or not and just say hey don't I. Yeah. So look it's it's one of those topics that. Are very, uh, conflictual. In my view, I would always be inclined to say, yes, you can have the roles.

Um, but then if. Yeah, but then are probably most likely incorporating the cost. I'm still gonna reluctantly say yes. Like reluctantly. Like reluctantly.

Like, if it's like it depends on also it depends on the client. If it's if the clients are not, they're not very nice. Yes. If it's not very nice, you're less likely to give them more like to throw them a bone. You know what I mean?

Correct. So, you know, we've had our fair share of, like, uh, crappy clients, but, you know, at the end of the day, it's all about relationship. It's all about relationship. Yep. That's right, that's right.

All the relationships. We're out of time. Do you have anything else to add to to the conversation, Mr. J. No, I don't think, uh, if I say anything else, I think we might go extra overtime, so.

My my my. Yes. Uh, there's quite a few. There's quite a bit of topics for next time as well, so look. Thank you guys so much for listening to the first episode of the AM Visuals podcast, where we talk a lot about what it means to be in the media, creative media industry, especially for content production.

Yeah. Um, you guys can always reach us at our email, uh, listen to the show notes or check us out on social media and you can see how all our works there. Thank you very much. Thank you.