Business can kill creativity, with David Miller

Guys, get your body ready. It's time. He is the bringer of hype. The person of the people and the creative legend. He is a creative director and founder of Mayday Media.

Ladies, welcome, David Miller. That's quite an introduction. Did you. Did you notice? No, gentlemen.

Just ladies. I did, I did. I did notice that. I don't know how my girlfriend feel about that. Wait, what say, Jerome.

Easy. I like that. One. David, you like that one? It's pretty hype, right, man.

I didn't know that this was called Hollywood production. Wait, wait. They're going all out. That's that's that's what it's all about here. I've got Steven Spielberg's number and speed dial.

Matt. Are you talking about. Yeah. Gosh, if I knew it was such a high value production of. Maybe it would have been a button up shirt or something.

How are you going, man? I'm good. I'm good. I'm not gonna lie. I'm a little bit, uh, nervous as it's my first ever podcast, but I think I'm more relaxed that it's with you guys because.

Because I know you guys. So are you. Be right, mate. So, um, I think if anything, just, you know, just ease into it. It's fine.

Everyone gets nervous at the start, the first five minutes and then eventually just ease into it. Then they're good. You eventually forget all this extra stuff. Yeah. Um, but.

So I guess the reason why you invited you on your was because you're actually a pretty big influence on one's life or where we are today at 4 a.m. visual. So, um, do you want to run us through a story of how you inform it? Yeah. So when Foong and I met, uh, it was sort of peak Covid time.

Uh, it was during that time where, you know, you could only buy two boxes of spaghetti. You know, a box, you know, a can of baked beans. You couldn't find toilet paper. It was just it was a bit mental. So what was that?

Good old times. The good, the good times. Good old times. The good old pandemic memories. I remember that.

That would have been in somewhere early 2020s. Like when the things were just happening sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It was like, uh, it was around March or April of 2020.

People were selling toilet paper for like 40 bucks on eBay. Yeah. It's fine, you know. It's that. Good?

Yeah. I, uh, gosh, I think the furthest I drove to find toilet paper was like Wollongong. Wow. Yeah. Did you actually.

Hey, man, when you got to go? Yeah. Really? From from Zetland to. To Wollongong.

That's pretty nuts, man. Yeah. Maybe maybe cut that bit out because I wasn't allowed to drive that far. You know, there's leaves outside your, like, on trees and whatnot. Yeah.

Well look, it wasn't that I wasn't that desperate. It wasn't that desperate. That's sort of like when we get to the zombie level. Yeah. Yeah.

But, um. Yeah. God gave you these perfect two hands for a reason, bro. So wipe your arse with that. It's fine.

Nah. Yeah, but then I have to touch my camera, so. You know. But, um. Tell us.

Just take us. Take us through the story. Yeah. So, yeah, I met Fung. Uh, he was working at camera House in Broadway, and, uh, I needed to buy a whole bunch of equipment.

Because when starting out as a videographer, you watch all these YouTube videos of you need this gear, you need that gear. So I had a whole list of all this equipment that I thought I needed to buy. Went into the shop, and I just gave him the list. And I was like, you know, do you have this? Do you have that?

So we started going through, uh, the, the stock in the store and, uh, and he was just like, oh, man, you need, you know, heaps of things, you know, what is it that you that you do, what do you film? And I said, I, I film real estate. And he said, oh, what do you mean you film real estate. What does that entail? I said, oh, well, you know, I've got clients who, you know, with this pandemic happening, they can't, you know, have auctions or open homes.

No one can see these homes. But, um, to have like, these walkthrough videos. Oh, that sounds really cool. He said. Yeah.

Uh, would you like to would you like to come to a video shoot? One time. I was like, who's this guy? Like inviting me to places, honestly speaking. But in all honesty, though, like you did, bloom blew my mind in saying that you did real estate videography because, like, at that point I would, I would, I would thought that being a freelancer, you need to go do weddings, birthday parties, all that stuff.

And you're like, real estate. I'm like, okay, yeah, what's going on? I sort of skipped that whole wedding phase. I, I don't want that responsibility to film someone's wedding. I just yeah, I just some people are really good at it and they love doing that.

But me personally, I prefer shooting real estate, but, um. Yeah. So you know what? It was like 10 or 15 minutes into our conversation, I invited you to come to a shoot. A couple of days later, uh, he met, uh, she met up with me.

It was at Killara. No Crow's nest. There was the first one. Was it Crow's nest? Yeah.

Crow's nest. Oh, that. That penthouse. Yeah. Like that.

That one way we flew the drones on the roof of that, um, of that apartment. Yeah. And we had full synchronised drone flight together. It was, uh, it was like ballet. Like drone ballet.

It was really nice. And then after that, we went to Killara. That's right. And we met, uh, Ben Cohen from Sotheby's. And it was this beautiful, like five, $6 million estate.

And Phuong was just like, look at all this stuff. And I'm like, yeah, I know, it's really cool. And, um, luxury homes was definitely a thing. Yeah. What?

What's going on? Yeah. You just, like, on the outside. You stay professional when you see these mega mansions, but inside, uh, you know, inside, it's kind of like, oh, my gosh, look at this. On the outside, you're like, oh, okay.

Very nice home. Yes. We'll, uh, we'll do a very good job of, uh, filming and capturing your property. Yeah. Um, but yeah, kind of just went from there and, and, uh, as you know, got busier and busier and Fung started to dive into that, uh, sort of industry and show more interest in videography and editing.

We our friendship just continued to grow from there. We'd, you know, rely on each other for shoots. You know, if I needed someone or he needed someone, we we'd call each other and. Yeah, it just went from there. It's, um, funny you say that, right?

When opportunity just strikes you, just opportunity presents itself. You got to just take it, right? Same thing with you. Um, from my understanding, your story is that you started during Covid, too. Right after you got laid off.

Yeah. The sales person. Yeah. That's right. So, yeah, basically.

Uh, I've always I've always been a creative or anything creative. I've always been drawn to. So when I was young, you know, in school, art, drawing, painting, music, whatever it was, I always, you know, was always drawn to that. Um, and then, you know, sort of in my early 20s, remember when GoPros were super popular? Yeah, everyone had one.

They didn't know why they had one. They saw some guy snowboarding or jumping out of a helicopter on YouTube with a GoPro, and they just thought, oh, I need one of those. And then it just sat there and collected dust. So I got a GoPro because I was travelling overseas, and I made this cool video of my friends and I when we went to Brazil for the World Cup in 2014. And instead of having like photos to look back at, I made this like little documentary of my mates and I on our travels.

Now that I did, that was really cool. You should do this. And I was like, like, who's gonna. Pay me to? That was before the whole era of vlogging on on YouTube, right?

I think so, yeah. I think so. Yeah, it was, I think I purely made it just so I had like a little video to reflect back on, on my travels with my mates and so they could have like a cool little souvenir. But, um, that's sort of my first introduction to using cameras and editing. And then I bought a better camera from that.

And, um, but it wasn't until Covid hit, and I was basically made redundant at my sales job at the time. And, uh, but I'd met I'd met Ben Cohen from Sotheby's International Realty in Double Bay. I was in double Bay at the time. I had a camera with me, and he approached me, uh, and he said, hey, I noticed you got a camera. Do you?

Is it photos or videos? I said, oh, no, I, I do videos. He said, oh, well, my bosses, Mark and Barry Goldman. They they actually looking for someone to do videos. Can I introduce you to them on Monday?

And I said yeah, yeah, we can go. Yeah. We can have a look at that. So I did a video with them. That was in 2017.

I did a handful of videos for them. It was nothing amazing. It was nothing. Wow. I was just sort of figuring out what it is that I'm trying to, I guess, the direction of my life I'm going towards.

So at that point, you're already like had your hand in editing and whatnot for various like little jobs and, and whatnot. Right? It was in terms of editing. Yeah, it was still on iMovie, which is a free Apple software. There was no like, you know, picture profiles like S log2 or any of that.

It was a I had had a canon 70 Mk2, which was a photography camera, not a video camera, but I preferred videos, just the camera I, I could afford at the time. But it wasn't until Covid that Ben Cohen called me and said all the open homes, all the auctions, all of that stuff no one can go to, but people need to see these homes because real estate's not stopping. I need a video walkthrough of these houses. So if it wasn't for him calling me, I wouldn't have had the demand to, I guess, make him a video. Someone else saw that.

Hey, you did that for Ben Cohen. Can you make that for me as well? And I started to get a bit more busy. I needed more equipment. Met you, and then you saw what it is that I do, and it just sort of.

Blew up from there. Yeah. It's just it was a ripple effect. Yeah. Right.

Right. Right place, right time. I would say. That's the thing with, um, that. Yeah.

Isn't that what they say? But, um, uh, getting lucky. So it's just about preparation, meeting opportunity. And I guess you would just, again, like what you said right at the place. Right time.

Oh, right place, right time. And. Yeah, that's it is. What it is. I think, uh, the what is you're looking for is serendipity.

I love that word, by the way. Yeah. Maybe you should. Maybe you should change the podcast. Serendipity.

Pretty cool name. I swear, this guy, every every episode that we're. Doing, we're changing. It's changing the every part. Yeah.

Anyways, moving on. So that ties into the next question that I wanted to ask you to. Is this about the importance of video? Like you said it yourself, during Covid time, you know, videos are quite important for the real estate space because people weren't allowed to go out to view their homes. Now, knowing that today and in this current landscape, when we're not in, we're no longer in in lockdown.

What is your view on the importance of video for businesses in general? Well, if you look at how much traffic on the internet is video based, I think it's around the 85%. Online traffic is video consumption. It doesn't matter what the video footage is, if it's a tutorial on how to cut hair, if it's a tutorial tutorial on how to make clothes, or or how to edit video footage or whatever it is, there's just so much video content online. But whatever your questions are, there is an answer, whether it's found on YouTube or wherever it is Vimeo.

Um, and it's always comes in the form of video content. Um, but in terms of, I guess back then things like, you know, YouTube and all that sort of stuff were around. But when you tie in YouTube and then now Instagram and TikTok, because TikTok, when did TikTok come out? 2000. It was originally musically.

Yeah, I want to say 2017. I'm correct. Yeah. But it didn't explode until. Until Covid like during that period when everyone started looking into it.

So people realised they they love, yeah, video content, but not just video content. Short, sharp, snappy videos. Correct? Yeah, they we call it a snack of all content. Yeah.

30s or so. Yeah. You like that? Yeah. It kind of feels like every kind of everybody during that time and during Covid, they realised like, hey, I've got a camera in my hand, what is this like?

I can do something with this. And that's, that's basically one of the, I would say, one of the catalysts for, for TikTok being so popular. Well, it's funny because incentive. Smartphones have been around for a while now. And you know, you know the iPhone two, three, whatever.

You've always had that functionality, but no one really utilised it. So the way I see it, the landscape was first changed when YouTube came out, right? That's when the videos really started taking off and didn't. Then the next exponential I guess changed was when TikTok came out. Instagram didn't do that.

People think because Instagram has rules now, but they forget that Instagram was originally a photo platform, right? Still only until recently. But once TikTok came out and people realised that, hey, look, you know, I'm going to watch, I'm going to consume my content short content through videos. That's when everyone started talking about videos. You know, your garage vs your, you know, all your social media influencers.

They started talking about videos. Um, and that's what we preach to our clients as well. Is that the power of video, like you can't connect with someone through a photo as you can with a video because they, they, they, they feel like they know you once they watch all your content. And when you meet them in person, it's more of a, hey, I'm talking to you as a as a friend because I've known you, but then you on the other side, you don't know them at all. Yeah.

Well, me, you know, videos are moving pictures, but especially when you have someone speaking to you. And even more so if they're looking directly into the camera lens, it's like they're speaking to you. So when you're looking for information and when you're looking for a specific topic online, and you find a video of that topic that you're interested in and that person is there talking to you, it feels like on the other side, on the receiving end, they're talking to me. It feels personal. Uh, it feels, you know, relevant because it's like what I'm searching for, what it is that you're talking about, and you're giving me that.

So there's that sort of connection, even though it's on a screen. Video content just cuts out things like instead of blogs where people used to read. Now you don't have to read. It just gets recorded. It just gets recorded.

And I can consume that information because you've told me that information that I was looking for and people enjoy. And I think it's just like you said, what would you call it before snacking? Snack content. Yeah. Snack content.

It's like, cool. I got the information I needed. I didn't have to search too far or too long. I didn't have to read anything. Um, yeah.

I got what it is that I was looking for, and I got it quickly and and yeah, they consume it. In saying that, it's. I'm not saying that there's no place for photos of or blog post copywriting. Then there's, you know, there's people who prefer reading or prefer looking at photos, not videos or listen to, like, podcasts. So as our friend from another digital agency say, it's all the time.

Different horse courses for horses. And for horses. You're basically saying that there's different things for every one kind of thing. Yeah, it's not to say that yes, currently videos are dominating, probably because people's attention span is so short. People just want to watch videos.

But, um, as a business, if you if you're also not doing the copywriting start stuff for your business, then you're also missing out. So we're kind of we kind of look at it like an analogy that we like to talk about is the Eiffel Tower, right. Where the Eiffel Tower is a place of attraction, but it's not mainly where people make the money. It's the businesses around of the Eiffel Tower that makes the money, right? Do you come up with this analogy?

No. We've actually like I got it from from another marketer as well. And it kind of resonated with us. So the way we approach our content now, it's yes, video is obviously one of the biggest, biggest arm for it. But there's an ecosystem around it, like with content creation in terms of writing, blog post photos and all that stuff as well.

So all the all that combined together creates those stackable content for people to consume all the information that we give them as well. But really go back to to your business made in media. How are you putting yourself out there in terms of video content for people to know who you are apart from obviously the, uh, the beautiful homes that you're putting out there. Are you planning to do extra content to, uh, to, um, show people who David Miller is the owner of the company. Good question.

Good question. So I guess there's a couple of different, uh, topics within that question. I'll try and remember them. Um, so in terms of actually putting the content out there with Mayday Media. Um, so, yeah, while it did start in real estate and, and I love that because I love filming Beautiful Homes, you know, I actually in fact, I find filming homes easier than filming things like people, weddings and people because people move and people change and they want to always go back and rewind and stuff.

Whereas filming a beautiful home, it's already ready to go and it doesn't move. I just have to capture beautiful parts of it during the daytime the dusk, sunset, all that sort of stuff. Um, but in terms of putting content out there, it's still made. A media is still in its infancy. Um, there's a bit of momentum behind it now.

I guess after a couple of years. But in terms of like networking and spreading the message of of what it is that I do, um, I do completely have social media to thank for that and a lot of word of mouth. So I'd produce content for, you know, one agent and then another agent may see that and enjoy that and then reach out to us. And that's the beauty of social media is it's a free network. Of course you can pay for sponsored posts, but other than that, it is a free network and it's a free way to connect with with others, whether it's Instagram or LinkedIn or TikTok or whatever that is.

I've used all of those platforms to connect with others. And and like we were saying earlier, people will consume content that's relevant to them and that they're interested in. So if I'm putting out, um, marketing content of real estate agents and marketing agencies who, you know, work within that, that area of, you know, that that field of work. Let me go back. Delete that picture.

Yeah. Delete that bit. Um. Yeah. So real estate agents and agencies and offices and marketers of that particular field, they will, you know, reach out to me and say, hey, can you please send us a price list?

We really love what you've done here. Are you free on a certain day to meet with us? You know, we'd love to discuss how you could start filming for us and and things like that. So, um, in terms of, uh. I guess personal branding, like, let's say, are you ever looking to get, um, David Miller as a brand out there, or is it just always going to be Mayday?

Uh, I don't want to get David Miller branding out there, and I didn't I didn't want to name the business after myself, because I kind of knew that I did want this was something that I wanted to grow into, something more into a team of people. Uh, but if I was to name it after myself, if I if I had a team, you know, that I worked alongside with you know they're also part of the brand as well. Having my name to the business. I feel sort of, I guess shadows, shadows them. But but but the business relies not just on myself.

It relies on the team of people around me. And I want that team to be made a media. I don't want it to be David Miller and a couple of. Other cool gangs. Yeah, no.

But in saying that he is, it is true. We we did have a discussion about personal brand versus company brand a while back. And in saying that naming a business after yourself, it becomes harder to scale as well as to eventually sell, sell, sell. Sell. Sell.

Sell. It. Anyways, it's not a weed in my head. Sorry. Yeah, but, um, that's a that's the same thing we were talking about earlier about when film was mentioning being an Ifo tower, what we usually, um, tried to advocate for or try to push to a client that to build your personal brand separate from your personal, from your business brand.

So let's say David Miller is the brand. He's a creative director, the photographer. Right. But he works in a media. He works in media events, whatever.

Right. Yeah. Eventually you want to eventually, if you do want to sell those or get rid of those arms of your business, you can still. Or if you scale it. I mean, yeah, at the end of the day, like what people see.

Like, yes, it's the made in media that is your company. But what they, what they buy is you. Because like the work that you've done, the the interpretation that you've done in terms of like how you edit your videos because anyone can take videos of house, right? It's just how you interpret it and how you edit it that gives you gives it that personal flair and gives it that personal connection between between your work and the actual agent itself. Yeah.

If you if you take, for example, I love metaphors, right. If you take the metaphor of clothing labels, for example, you've got your expensive brands, you've got your cheaper brands. But, you know, and each brand would cater to its particular audience. You know, some people will buy this because it fits them price wise. Some people will buy this because they believe in the story of that particular brand.

But there's no one brand that absolutely every single person is going to wear. You know, I, for example, I love the story behind Nike and how they started. And, you know, I read the, the, uh, autobiography by by the, the founder. And I really connected with their story and how they started, and I loved it. And I lean more towards if I'm going to buy, you know, sporting equipment or sporting clothing or clothing for the gym or something.

I'll lean towards Nike, you know, because I not because their clothes are better or anything like that. I just. Presented them. Point made. Yeah, the branding.

Is amazing is on. Point. For me though, the story. Yeah, I really connected with the story, I loved it. Um, so I guess, you know, going back to Mayday Media, why would people go with Mayday as opposed to someone else?

You know, you've got so many talented videographers, photographers or content creators in Australia and Australia produces. I think Australia produces some of the best real estate marketing content creators in the world. When you look at brands that are out there in this country. Um, they just produce things that you do not find anywhere else in the world. You don't see that type of videography in America or Europe or anywhere like that.

And in terms of why a client would pick me over someone else, it's not that my videos are better than anyone else's or worse or anything like that, but if I've got that connection with that client and that rapport, that's what they're buying. They buy you first, your product is second. But when you sort of build that strong relationship with that client, you want to pull out all the tricks you want to pull out. Every single, you know, editing, I guess. Trick that you know, and you always want to go one step further for that client.

Um, so in saying that, sorry to cut you off in saying that, you just mentioned that obviously, the way I see it, the way I say it is, people like to work with people, right? So that's what you just mentioned in saying that. Why aren't you putting your personal brand out there? Don't you want people to know who you are and connect with you online? I'd rather the work do all the talking, because at the end of the day, they're wanting the product that I and the product and the service that I produce and that our team produces.

Um, I'm the person who goes out there, films it, edits it, and if it's not me, it's it's one of the the members of our team. Um, but I'm more focussed on building that rapport with the client. But not just that, the video and the photos that we produce. I want that to do all the talking. Not so much me, because if I want to promote myself, I'll use my I'll use a personal account and show like, hey, this is where I'm eating today, this is what I'm wearing today.

This is and those are influencers. I'm not an influencer. I'm just running a small business here. And in terms of the actual content that we produce, I'm not interested so much. So in creating the best video, I mean, I am interested in creating the best video for my clients, but I'm more interested in them calling me to do the next job.

The video that's more important is not the one I'm doing right now. It's the next one. I need to give them a reason to call me back. Call it customer service, or being passionate or creative in whatever field that you do, but you need to give your clients a reason to call you back because that's how you create that consistency. And if if you're busier and you're staying busy.

You're going to be consistently working on your craft, and the more you can work on your craft, the better at it you will be. If I look at videos that, you know, two years ago from when we first met. If I look at the videos that I made back then and look at them now, I'd cringe. And then now I'm, you know, I am producing videos, you know, as best as I can today, but I know in another two years I'll look at what I've made now and thought, well, what were you thinking? This is wrong, you know?

But you always you always want to. You always want to be getting better at what it is that you do. If you're passionate about what you do, you always want to be getting better at it. Bashing yourself for bashing your past self, why don't you? Oh, I tell you what.

Being being a creative is is a tough. It's an emotional roller coaster because you've got a vendor who wants to sell their home for top dollar. You've got an agent who wants to sell this home at an incredible price. Meanwhile, I've just come in. I couldn't care less about the sale or anything like that.

I'm just like, how can I make something better than the last thing I made for this client? I'm just trying to make something that looks absolutely phenomenal. And not only that, uh, I have to make it in a short turnaround time, so usually they'll get their content within 2 or 3 days. That's crazy. So you always.

What I'm hearing is that you're always trying to top yourself at it, at every shoot, that every video that you put out there. Absolutely. So I want to know you're obviously big on storytelling. Yeah. What's your approach on the creative direction of your videos?

How do you approach it like to give the best of the best that you can? You can right now. Well, what is your process? Is my process. Um, I would say I would say my approach to producing and editing, uh, real estate videography, which is predominantly what it is that we do.

We do some other videos like other industries and, um, promoting things like tech companies and and fashion brands and stuff like that. But our bread and butter and the majority of what we do is real estate content. And for those who don't know who made it, who made a media is, I would say that our approach to what we do is we make music videos of homes. So. So growing up, I'm the oldest of four kids.

We grew up in a big, big musical family. Parents played instruments. Our parents met in a band. Um, each of us kids, you know, we either played the drums or piano or sang or guitar. Just anything and everything we get our hands on.

We wanted to play music. What do you play? Sorry. Uh, I play played drums in piano growing up. Do you play the guitar?

Nah, didn't have the. I had the coordination for drums. Not the coordination for guitar. It's it's too finicky. But, um, the drums are cool because you could hit stuff, you know, you can really get into it.

Yeah. A lot of energy. And it's. In this kind of guy. Fashion.

Exactly. And so that that sort of musical, Uh, I guess that musical ability always stayed within me. And, you know, when I moved home, uh, I couldn't bring all these instruments with me, so that kind of that creativity side of me sort of faded away and sort of came into the videography side of things. And so when I go into a home, I look at the home and I, I sort of ask myself, what is this home sound like, you know? Is this home more of a hip hop lounge type of home, or is this a classical cinematic home?

You know, what does this home sound like? So I'll go around and I'll look at the lines of the home, and I think it'll be cool to capture this part of the the home like this or that. And then once I get home, I get rid of all the the rubbish files, keep the best ones, and then I'll go on this mad hunt looking for the perfect song for this home. And, uh, I'm like, no, it doesn't sound like this. Doesn't sound like that.

Sometimes I'm lucky I can find it in a couple of minutes. Sometimes I'm really unlucky and I'll be looking for 6 or 7 hours. And that is one of my biggest flaws, because I'm so specific and I'm a perfectionist when it comes to what is this home? What is what does this home sound like? And once I find that song between me filming the home and the client getting the video, I've had a nervous breakdown.

I've had a heart attack. Uh, you know, my missus has had to pick me up off the ground and mop the floor of my tears. You know, there's just so emotional. And these clients, you know, they think, yeah, he's just going in there. He's gonna.

He's going to film a film, a house, and then he'll edit it and send it back to me. But no, like, I'm trying to make something better than the last thing I did. And once I found once I find the song, there's such a a weight off my shoulders, I'm like, okay, yes, this is the song that I that I've been looking for. I then put that into the video, but then it doesn't stop there. The song might not be in the order that I want it to be in, so I'll have to then chop up the song.

Move the intro here, move the chorus there. Then it has to all line up because if it doesn't line up, your song will just be out of sync and it's going to be like, what's wrong with this song? It's kind of a bit of a mess, so I have to then rewrite the song in terms of like chopping up the order, because maybe the agent wants to speak in this bit, but I'm not going to make the agent speak on top of like, the chorus. The chorus is the punch. That's the meat of the song.

You have to put the agents piece to camera at a quiet bit. So when they're when they stop speaking in the video, it leads up to the, the chorus or the beat drop. And that's where you show like the the money shot of the home. So there's all, all these little considerations, but the song directs the video. Whatever's happening in the song will help me determine and decide what video clip I'm going to then, or what effect I'm going to put into the video.

Yeah. I think, um, the way you you're doing what you're doing is you are also telling a story, which is what ultimately people connect with is a story brand kind of stuff. But, um, with what you're doing is you're chopping it up to kind of tell a story the way you want to tell it, which is. And then which is why, I guess your videos are so good, because when you follow it, it kind of just starts slow and an interesting introduction to the house and then, you know, banging in the music and it slows off, peaks down. You can never pick it.

You can never. Every time I watch your videos, it's like you can never pick it. What makes it so good? Like this is such like like every time I show a show, just like, check this out. It's like, damn, this is amazing.

And that's every what's called every single reaction that we have is that of your videos. It's just like every single time it's taking. You through a journey to when you're watching this video. That was kind of buzzword two, but it is taking you through a journey from from intent of the house. But like the way you're interpreting it and the way you're doing it, it's just it's this beautiful story that that just kind of the intro and then the, you know, the the drop which is the, the, the, the conflict of what?

The resolution and the picture. Oh that's awesome. Thank you. Guys. But look.

I guess. Well, I guess the the the next question relating to that is a good segue. Um, uh, to this question. Sorry, what? What makes made a media the the go to real estate.

The video creator for, uh, in that field? Um, that's a good question. What makes made a media the go to. In the second part? Do you think you're better than ex media?

Uh, well. First of all, I don't think anyone is better than X media. I think they are. I think they are leading the way in terms of Australian content creators. Uh, they absolutely inspire me when I see what they make.

Going back to what you said, when you if you watch something that I make you think, oh, my God, that's amazing. When I watch what they make, I'm just. Sometimes when I watch what they make, I just makes me want to cry. I'm like, I'm never gonna. I'm never gonna be on that level.

Or if I am. Like, when, you know, they they are so they're so good at what they do and they definitely inspire me. But I don't want to copy what other studio guys are making. I definitely want to take inspiration, but trying to copy someone else will only make you as good as them. Mhm.

You know. Yeah. Um, but going back to your question form, uh, why should people go to Mayday. People should work with who gets them the best results. Yes.

True. So if my clients are getting the best results through me, they should stick with me. If they're not getting the results that thereafter, whether that's price wise or the the look of the what we produce or whatever it may be, they should work with someone who gets their results. You should only surround yourself with those who are going to get you to where you need to be. So, you know, I'm very fortunate that we've got a good, solid, uh, client base keeps us the extremely consistent and they keep us really, really busy.

Um, and it's it's always really nice to know when, uh, I guess our clients competition contact us and say, hey, we really like what you've produced for this particular agent. Can you do some work for us? Although we have an exclusivity agreement with our clientele where if we're producing content for them, we don't produce content for their competition in their area because they love so much what it is that we do. It gives their marketing content. I guess a point of difference because it's it's our style.

It's the style that that we produce it. Our style is not better or worse than anyone else's, but it's what we produce and it's every content creator has their own flavour, as it were. And, uh, it's always humbling when someone else wants to work with us. But in order for our clientele to have the upper hand, we keep it exclusive with them. So I guess that's another reason why they like to to opt to work with us.

That's pretty cool. Very good answer, man. Yeah, very good answer. I wanted to quickly just wander about just a little bit about what you were saying earlier, about being a creative and running a business. And I think this is, um, a good piece for people who are creatives or artists but are looking also to start their own business.

And I think that, um, it is a bit hard because we ourselves, we come from a business background. Our whole family have always been doing business. I wouldn't say we're creatives and our work doesn't show that we're creative, so we're not. We're not trying to make a Picasso a piece of painting or in a video, like like you are. It's.

And you can tell by the calibre of clients that we have to. They're more business minded. They're more looking for results opposed to a really nice video. Yeah. And that's what we enjoy.

That's that's what we prefer to do. Um, in saying that with that, being a creative going to business is, like you said earlier, very it's a tough thing because it's so. It's such a emotion. Really a roller coaster. People may say, hey, look, I don't like this part of the video, but you spent like, literally two days on that one piece and, you know, to take that feedback on board and say, oh, yeah, okay, I'll change it the way you like it.

But the way they the feedback that they gave you, that makes no sense in the whole scheme of the whole video. Right? Yeah. So in saying that, um, how are you finding the journey between, uh, the, I guess, the transition between a crave to a business owner and how are you managing that? That.

Good question. Yeah. Uh, so, like I was saying before, Mayday media is still in its infancy. It's only a couple of years old. Uh, we are busy, but we're not where we have the potential to be just yet.

So we're still moving in that direction. We've got the momentum to get where I'd like it to be. Um, you see, online these days, all these courses and all these influences and all this noise, as it were, of being your own boss, being an entrepreneur, All these, you know. Yeah. All these years.

Yeah. Yada yada. All that. Sort of. Like I said, it's all noise.

And all the online gurus, as it were. Yeah. And, and prior to running my own business, I was, um, I was employed and most of the time it was, uh, like sales roles. Being employed is comfortable. It's comfortable because you have a consistent salary.

Maybe you've got bonuses and commissions, superannuation, uh, insurances, all that, all that sort of stuff. Gosh, it's good, you know, and you've got particular hours that you can, uh, work from and then to and, and then you get your weekends and things like that. And then one day you get this brilliant idea. You know what? I'm too ambitious for this.

I'm going to start my own business. The West. Coast. And it is a double edged sword because once you start it. You You're screwed.

Personally, I can't go back. I couldn't go back to being employed by someone. But then, on the other hand, I have no option now. I am the receptionist. I am customer service, I am HR, I'm the accountant.

I am the boss. I'm. I wear all the hats and it's exhausting. There is no more. If you want to work for yourself, there's no more Monday to Friday.

There's no more 9 to 5. That is out the window. It is. It is exhausting. It is emotional.

It is frustrating. It is emotional again. It's emotional one more time. It's it's expensive. And, uh, it's not, you know, it'll test you.

It'll it'll test you, um, in terms of your patience and I guess something that helps me. I don't have the I don't have the, uh, you know, ability to just sit down and read. But I love to listen, and I love listening to, like, I guess business books or people who inspire me are on audible. This is. This podcast has not been sponsored by audible.

Thank you very much. Thank you. You can listen to an audiobook on your chosen audiobook preference, but that's the one that I use. And when I listen to people who inspire me or their stories or business books, things like that, if I if it doesn't resonate with me, I'll delete it and move on to the next one quickly. But I'll take what information resonates with me, what information I like, and I'll apply that into what it is that I do.

Going from a creative to running a business. You start off being creative because you want to express yourself, and then getting people reacting to what it is that you do, whether it's writing a song or making a taking photographs or making videos or whatever it is that you do when people react, have an emotional reaction to something that you've made creatively, whether it makes them laugh, makes them cry, uh, makes them happy, whatever it is. I think the biggest reward of any creative is being able to make something and pour your heart and soul into it. To then have an audience say, wow. That if that paid the bills, I wouldn't need to invoice people I love so much to make something.

And then for my clientele or whoever it is that I'm showing to be, you know, wowed or impressed or or laugh at it or cry at it. Recently. Recently, uh, a very, very close childhood friend of mine asked me to film their secret family wedding ceremony in the Blue Mountains. Okay. I didn't ask for any money.

Uh, this was going to be my wedding gift to them, and I filmed this thing for them, and it was just them and their. Their parents. Okay, then when the engagement party happened, people were invited into the room. Everyone's dressed up nice. They were like, oh, this is a bit.

This is a bit full on for an engagement party. And their wedding video played. And like, they're all crying and and they're all like. They came up to me afterwards and they're like, oh my God, I can't believe, like, how good that was. And you know, you captured our day.

You captured our moment. Like, you know, I've got goosebumps and all this sort of stuff. And that was everything that I needed. That was everything I needed to hear that was so good. But then going from the point where your creativity turns into a business, it's hard because people can say, oh, don't take it personally.

It's just business. Well, no, because I personally made this, you know. So yes, I am going to take it personally, but it's, I guess, how you react to that feedback. You know, like you said before, sometimes you make something the client says, can you change this? Can you change that?

It's such a oh, okay, cool, I can yes, I can make these amendments, but I think the more the more that I do this, the more I've learned to take on feedback. But not only that, listen to what each clientele knows and mirroring your client. Because when you mirror people, you're comfortable with them. And when I know what my clients are after and what what it is that they want, I'll make something specific to them. I customise and I tailor what it is that they like and I make it for them.

And that, I guess, removes and reduces the friction of any changes that may pop up later down the track. Can you explain. That? Mirroring your clients. So mirroring, I mean when you mirror a client or when you mirror anyone, um, you know, if you take, for example, a particular client that I have and just the way he greets people he uses when I see him, he go, Davie, how's it?

What are you saying is, hey, David, how are you? But because he says it like that, I go. He goes, Davy, how's it going? Oh, sorry. He goes, Davy, how's it?

Oh. And I go, Ben, how's it? So I say the same thing back to him. I don't say that to anyone else, but I say it to him and he says it back to me. So I mirror him in that regard.

So I guess it's almost like that. That's that sort of connection that we have. But by mirroring, mirroring someone else, you sort of make them comfortable because they're like, oh, this person's like me, and I'm like them. That's interesting. He's part of my tribe.

You know, we're tribal people and, you know, people. So look, I think we're going on a bit of attention here, but I want to read it back to, uh, running a business and being creative. And I think this would be actually a pretty good title for this podcast room. Um, how business skills are creativity. Question mark.

Something like that. Oh, I kind. Of like how. How his business. Will.

Cure your creativity, but, like, look, in saying that, um, coming from, uh, an artist, kind of you said on your personal business, does it ever get not mundane, but do you ever start having days where you're like, I didn't really enjoy what I do? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Like, even if you're doing what it is that you love, there's still going to be times where you're like. Oh, man.

Even though I do love what it is that I do for whatever reason, and there's always going to be a reason. But for whatever reason, I'm not enjoying this. And it might be like writer's block. Or maybe you're in a bit of a creative funk, whatever it is, but just remove yourself from it for a second. Go for a you know, if you need to go for a walk, or just maybe just remove yourself from that situation.

Um, yeah, it it happens. It does happen. So, um, because, yeah, at the end of the day, you're human and, you know, if you're fatigued, you know, that's where, you know, these particular thoughts or feelings can come in. But if you don't remove yourself from that. Well, then you're not giving yourself an opportunity to reset or refresh.

Now, in saying that, can you tell us a recent experience you've had with uncomfortable situations or unpleasant situations, perhaps. Unpleasant. Or pleasurable? Or maybe, maybe, maybe that's, you know. Is that the dictionary?

And it could be, I don't know, I've never heard maybe not pleasant. Unpleasant is the. Way I think. I'm pleasurable. Right.

Maybe that could be a, I don't know, firing a client. Perhaps you. The way you. Ask. That.

It sounds it sounds like, uh, this is something that happened. Perhaps recently, I. Don't know. It's like, you know, we we kind of. It's an experience that I guess the three of us endured together.

Hence why. You have. Asked me. It's those who don't. Know.

Before you go. It's interesting that you mentioned that that wedding as well, because you're able to compartmentalise this whole issue while you were doing something really nice for, for, for your friend as well. That's great. It's stressful, though, when you're trying to deal with two things at once. But anyways, go on.

Tell us the story. Look, in a nutshell to give you a bit of background. Uh, my photographer and I were at a shoot, and, uh, sort of like, towards the end of the shoot, it was almost. It was almost sunset. And then the agent comes up and asks us, are you doing the floor plan, which they had not asked us to do?

And we said, uh, no, we we're not doing the floor plan, but would you like us to. Uh, yeah we would. Okay, cool. Cool. Fun.

Hey, are you able to do a floor plan? He's like, yeah, I can get there tomorrow. Okay, fantastic. So I'm I'm busy putting the videos together. The next day, Cade's busy putting the photos together.

You boys go out to the home, put the floor plan together, and then we all send. We all send what we've made back to this client. Now, I have also informed this client. By the way, in two days time, I'm going out to this wedding. This secret wedding I'm going to be filming.

So I'm going to make sure you get everything you need prior to me leaving, because where I'm going, there's not going to be any reception. So I get to the wedding location and the reception is a bit patchy at times. I do have a bit of reception, and at the times that I do have reception, my WhatsApp is exploding from messages of this client saying the video is terrible. The photos are not what we asked for. The floor plan is what it like.

It's a floor plan, like it's not, you know. Yeah. It's not a mona Lisa here, mate. This is a it's a white background with some black lines. Meant to.

Be a representation. It's base. A floor plan is basically a barcode opened up. Okay. That's all it is.

It's not. Whoa. And, um, and they. Just. Tore into what it is that we were doing.

Now, it's very interesting. If you look at the group of myself and the clients and the way that they were speaking to us. This is your fault. You're to blame. Why haven't you done this?

Why haven't you done that? When we had submitted everything that we do. And what? You know what it is that we do within the time frame that we said we would. Uh, and then I go back into the group chat of us.

We were. So I tell you what, if you go back and say that group chat, guys, we were so productive that day. We we it was it could have been so easy for us to be like, if these guys are whatever, you know, let's just invoice them. And we were okay, how can we do this better for them? How can we make them happy?

Um, guys, I'm I'm filming this thing right now. Can you do this? Can you do that? We were just feeding off each other and delegating, and we were getting, you know, trying to do the best that we can for this client. But they were just.

I don't know if they were having a bad day or whatever it was, but the bridge was definitely burnt. The bridge was burnt, then bombed, Then they swept up the ashes. Put that into a kiln and then sent that kiln into space. That's into the sun. Yeah.

So? So. So when I after that horrible experience and I felt guilty because I, it was a horrible experience for all of us. But I felt guilty because I brought you guys into that situation. Not obviously not knowing that they were gonna, you know, explode on us like that.

It was crazy. But in terms of the days after we had conversations like, should we fire them? Should we send them an email or whatever it was? And once we'd all calmed down, I remember you guys telling me, I know you were going to send them an email. David, maybe best not to.

They haven't reached out to you, so maybe just let it be. So in terms of moving forward, if I ever have a difficult client or if anyone listening to this, or perhaps you guys ever have a difficult client. If they don't contact you again. Just leave it. Just leave it as it is.

It's water under the bridge. Just forget about it because you need to put more focus on who is with you right now and who is important to you right now, and servicing your clients to the best that you can in the events that these difficult clients reach out. If you truly believe that you can work with them again. Verbalise with each other your expectations of each other. Also, have a client agreement in place.

You have one of those. Now I do have one of those days. Gosh, I. Felt so. Like productive.

When I typed that out that it's a 12 page. Client agreement. I'll do. This. I will not do that.

And I was I was like, gosh, this is so like professional. But if you truly don't want to work with this client moving forward, you just let them know. Listen, I believe our brands are going in different directions, But, uh, I wish you all the best. Yeah. Make it amicable.

Yeah. It's interesting that you say that. Have you ever read, uh, Google reviews of, like, businesses where they've gotten a bad review, and then the owner comes back and and basically goes up in flames and tries to justify himself and be like, he tries to get angry at the customer. That's never a good look. Is it.

The best? Yeah, it's not a good I love it. Oh, this. Is a fake review. Yeah.

I've never had never heard about you before. I was like, um. Yeah, I. Don't know about you guys, but whenever I see one star reviews on Google, I then think, hmm, there's so many positive, there's so much positive feedback for this particular business. Why is this person giving a one star review?

And not always, but most of the time I'll then click on that person's Google page and and see, you can see then all the reviews they've left. And most of the time they're just leaving one star reviews for everyone. Like, so you're not. Just. You're just.

An arsehole. Yeah, you're just complaining. You just. You just need. To vent out.

Yeah. Get out of here, mate. Karen. Yeah. Um, but, look, um, to tie that up, that that question up.

So is it okay to fire a client? It's absolutely okay to fire a client. Just because I provide a service and or a product doesn't mean that I have to work with whoever just walks into my door. I want to enjoy who it is that I work with. Why don't I have?

I should be able to have the freedom and ability to. Pick and choose. Not only do what it is that I love to do, but do it with people that I enjoy doing it. With. Mm, yeah, I agree.

Look, in saying that, what happened to that client. To be honest, I don't know. I didn't I haven't heard from them. Was there any repercussions or anything like that? No repercussions.

We I know that the three of us had a conversation like, should we not invoice them because, like, there, they seem to be so unhappy. But at the same time, we work so hard to like, try and make all these revisions with them just to make them happy. Didn't matter what we did, they just weren't happy. So we just realised, you know what? No.

I think you're a one star Google reviewer. I know what you are. That's what you are. So we invoiced them. They paid.

That was the end of that. The interesting thing is, though, I, I noticed online that they went back to who, whoever it is that they were using previously and all the creative techniques that I had brought into their online marketing. They then got their previous guy to then copy them. So I don't know how. Didn't they say your your videos were crap?

Well, I don't know how that guy would feel knowing that hey, I used to make content for you guys. You've then left me for someone else because you believe he's better for whatever reason, you're leaving him and coming back to me. But you're asking me to make what he did for you through me. So it's kind of like. That's weird.

That's a that's. That leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Honestly. Yeah, yeah. And whoever that creator is, good luck to them, because, uh.

Oh, mate. Um, honestly, in terms of firing clients, we've actually had a recent experience with that, too. What was that. Like? Oh, that was beautiful.

Like, it was amazing. Uh. The client. Oh, beautiful. The client, unfortunately didn't have was actually always asking for lower prices and discounts and whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah.

You know, as they do. And those are usually the clients that you want to be clear of. But then, you know, we decided to do some work for them. And then, um, after doing a decent, you know, big project with them, they we came to a conclusion that we weren't too happy working with them because they were just their demands were just unreasonable and just it wasn't a good fit. And so what we.

Did, even with a client agreement in place. Yeah. Yeah. So the thing was, after, like, I spoke to the team, and you can't risk or you can't put your the client in on top of your team's morale and how they feel. Right.

Because at the end of the day. Your team is who you're going to be working with on a day to day basis. And if they're not happy with the client, then sometimes you've got to bite the bullet and just part ways with the client, even though they're paying you your bills. Um, so what ended up happening is we we told them that, hey, look, we don't actually want to work with you anymore. We know.

Well, how did you say it? Oh, well, yeah. Yeah, it was professionals like, hey, look, I don't think we're the right fit. Um, however, you know, here's all the projects. You've approved them.

Everything's so good to go. She took them. She was happy. Um, what ended up happening is a month or two later, she came back saying, hey, look, this is not right. This is a mistake.

I need you to fix this, blah, blah, blah. I'm just, like, grilling us out of nowhere. Hang on a second. You sent the email and she was like, yeah. She was.

Yeah. Good. She was like, we sent all the project files and everything, so we're like, hey, we're not going to leave you like, dry. Here's all the stuff that you need in case anyone else wants to work on them. Yeah.

In a month later, she comes back and starts, like, telling us off. Right. And then. So that week. She's a one star.

Yeah. Yeah. She just wanted us. Karen's so. Yeah.

And then. And, uh, during that week, it was a busy week. So we didn't get back to her yet. And then, uh, the following, she started screening us on Instagram, and she said, you gotta remove this. You can't use this photo of mine.

Blah. Blah. Blah. Like all that stuff. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So so I try to stay professional and say, hey, look, you know, we we've already decided to part ways. We don't really want to deal with you anymore after that situation. Um, and then she, uh, she made it sound like we, we were trying to take the high road and be sophisticated. And then she started accusing us of copying her brand with all the branding and stuff.

So I was like, oh, my God, this is this. Anyways, this was another interaction a month later after that one. Just arguing for the sake of arguing. Yeah, yeah. And and regardless of industry, you'll always find people like that.

But, uh, the sooner you can put them in your rear-view mirror, the better. Yeah, yeah, for sure. It was super stressful that week. But then as soon as we kind of got over, it was kind of, please don't message me again. But they ended up blocking us for no reason.

I'm like. Oh no, let. Let him. Go. Yeah.

That's fine. That's fine. Um, I think we're about time. Yeah. I got you one more question, man.

I've got one, too. So. Yeah. Well. Why should I end.

Up, man? No, no. Like we're having such a good time. Yeah, we just got started. Yeah.

Jesus. Two things I noticed. This is like a very, um. How do I put it? Very.

I noticed these things about you. Right? So when I first met you, you were graciously, uh, allowed me to to to shadow you, to go see what the what the industry was like. Yeah. That signifies to me that you have a very good sort of people mindset.

And obviously you love to nurture the relationships around you. So tell me the philosophy behind that. Like, how do you approach the the people around you? Oh, wow. That's that's that's deep bro.

That's deep. Um, to be honest, I, I guess a bit of intuition and a bit of, you know, gut instinct. Um, you know, when I met you, we sort of just clicked, you know, I just kind of figured, you know this guy. You know, he seems like a nice guy. Let's, you know, let's see.

You know, he seems to be interested in what it is that I do. And if he's showing an interest in what it is that I do. If there's something that I can offer to let them step into what it is that they're supposed to do and what direction they're supposed to go in, then by all means, I'll take back. If we rewind back to when Ben Cohen approached me and double Bay all those years ago, and Mark and Barry Goldman when they gave me the opportunity to film that example of them asking me, hey, are you able to do this for us and see where this goes? If they hadn't given me the opportunity, I wouldn't be where I am today.

I'm a firm believer in giving people an opportunity to see where it may go. I've seen that example, you know, work in my life. Maybe it can work in others. But in terms of bringing you in, I guess. And, you know, we were shadowing and things like that.

Um, you know, you were shadowing me while I was filming or editing or just seeing how it what it is that I do and how I achieve those results. Uh, I guess being able to being able to help others be their best version of themselves. And if you are moving up, you do want to bring good people around you, up with you. Because if you can create that momentum together too will always get more done than just one alone. So you know it's better.

You always get more into you know what's better than that? I wasn't that good at math in school. So. Yeah. Last question.

Um, David Miller from Mayday Media. What is the direction of media? Media like? What are you. What are you thinking?

What are you what's your not end goal? But what's your short term goal? Where you want to be? Where's the next thing? Yeah.

What's next. Thing? So I guess, uh, I guess for the foreseeable future, we really want to. I guess we've we've basically, I guess, perfected our workflow when it comes to real estate marketing. I'm not saying our work is perfect, but our workflow and how we produce it has been perfected.

And it's it's, you know, it's humming away along nicely, you know, so we want to start venturing out into other industries and some another industry that we want to start or another, you know, topic that we want to start creating content for is events, not weddings. I just want to put that out there. But I'll tell you a really cool story. Recently I got a message from this, um, from this business coach, and he's from Scotland, of all places, and he messages me on Instagram and says, hey mate, I really love the stuff that you guys make. I'm doing a business conference East coast tour in Australia in November.

Would you guys be interested in filming the event? I was like, that sounds amazing. Uh, yeah. Well, we're based in Sydney. Um, you know what did it?

What is it that you had in mind? And he said, well, we're doing this this conference at pier one hotel. Uh, it's going to be, you know, amazing. It's right under the Harbour Bridge. It's going to be a full day thing.

Uh, you know, would you be interested in it? Absolutely. Let's talk more. He he asked for prices. I sent him prices.

He said, yeah. Fantastic. Can I pay a deposit? I was like, wow. I was like, whoa, this guy is like.

I said, well, hey, hey, what's, you know, one thing at a time. I just couldn't believe. I was like, this isn't a scammer because he's asking to pay me. I'm not. He's not asking me to, like, this guy is really trusting right now.

He's on the other side of the world. Good thing I'm not like a jerk. I'm just going to take his money run off, you know? But we we video calls and everything like that. Um, he paid 50% of the of the service already to to secure his day, which is obviously fine, But I'm just like, this guy is legit.

Yeah. Legit. He's. He's overseas. Wow.

Is that okay? Yeah. It's funny. And so, you know, we we had another video call this week and we're just going over the plans and everything like that. And it's set to be a phenomenal event.

And I'm so keen to put this whole video together because it's going to be really exciting. This guy. He's a business coach for BTS, so he's like a PT for PT business. And did you want to? Did you want to talk about the event a little bit or is it still in planning?

It's still it's still in planning. Yeah. But you will see the video when it comes out. Oh, can I wait for it, man? It's gonna be cool.

But, um, I just thought that that was an incredible thing of where his business is also at it's early stage as well, but his young business was so trusting already of my young business. And again, the power of social media connected us. Some guy in Scotland and some guy in Australia both running their own little, you know, their own small businesses, but they're going to be working together. Um, never doubt the power of social media and. Yeah.

So he approached you even knowingly knowing that you were doing mainly real estate this year as an event. So why is he asked us? Yeah. He said that when I asked him the same question and he said, just I really love the colour grading that you guys have. The colours that you achieve and you've got this sort of edginess to your video.

They've got a bit of attitude and they've just got this. He goes, I don't know what it is. It's your style. He goes, I want that. I want that energy.

I want that, that drama, I want that, you know, that X factor. But for my event, can you do that? Absolutely. Okay. Yeah.

That brings it back to your. The the. The what's selling um, made in media is you because you're, you're putting your creative flair. You're putting your personality into it. Yeah.

You're you're the one that people are buying, isn't it? Well, look, I originally originally it was just me. But Mayday Media has has outgrown just me and it is its own entity now. It has its own style and it has its own, um, I guess, signature look. Yeah.

And, um, if, you know, if people enjoy that and people want to work alongside us and, and have us produce content for them, um, we absolutely love that. Awesome. That's a great way to tie in tie up this podcast. But David Miller from Mayday Media. Yeah, thanks for coming on to the show.

Thanks for joining us and having a great conversation with us about creatives and the business side of running a creative business. Yeah. Makes sense. And one star Google. And.

Karen and, uh, definitely. Thanks for taking a chance on us at the start, man. Thank you so much, Google. The man, the myth, the legend. David Miller.

Thank you for having me.