Why a boring business can be the smart business

A friend of mine who is also a very successful business owner, and he runs a very like bleeding edge technology like edtech company. And I was like, man, this is like I was like, I wish I could do something like this. It was amazing. You know, you kind of changed the world. You teach people how to learn and things like that.

And he's like, trust me, man. I'd rather run a boring business. There's so many problems when you're innovating like that. So what do you mean? He said, I'm going to give you an example.

He's like, I have a friend who is who sells wheelie bins in South Australia, makes $15 million a year selling wheelie bins. I mean. Like one of the stories like that, that really got me quite to who I am now is just the fact that, you know, I was running your business like that, right? Put into $1.5 million in debt. And that's how I started my business journey.

So imagine, like, you know, if I'm able to overcome that, what else can I. You weren't even on the starting line. You were like, yeah, I. Was like, like 5 or 10 steps back. We had a real strong growth spurt and we went from like 400 K to like 1.3 mil in 12 months.

It was huge. It was like a three for forex. I'm in the business and I didn't really kind of spend as much time thinking about cultural fit within the business as I should have. And all it took was like one bad egg for this whole thing to really kind of fall apart. But I will say one thing, though.

Like, um, there's a little bit of, uh, starstruck this year. Really with me. Yeah. Because, like, I mean, man, when I, uh, when I first started, I, you seen me at my, you seen me when I just started out. We started around the same time.

Yeah, but I was just still a freelancer at the time. But you had the business going on and everything, so it was actually really interesting to see, like the, the, the difference. Uh, in, um, you're doing well though. You're actually. Yeah, man, I'll tell you, I was just I was on the phone with Toby then, and I was saying I was on my phone.

He's oh I mean visuals. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, people know you, you know that stuff as well. Oh, it's it's an interesting thing.

Like, I don't it's a weird thing because, like, you don't like to because you're always in the trenches. That's the thing that I'm thinking about. You're always in the trenches. You're So you see the ugly side of your business. You see all the, uh, the figures that come in, the things that.

You always think less. Right. Exactly. So it's kind of a weird thing when someone goes to, oh, you're doing you're doing all right. Yeah, but.

So I still don't believe it, but people seem to be. I still I still don't feel like we're doing all right. We're like, you know, you do the talk. Yes. Uh, was it just yesterday or the day before?

Like. Yeah. And and it's kind of like, oh, you know, like, look at the success. And then you go back to the office and you're back in the trenches and you're like, you're putting out fires about little things because the client, you know, wanted something at the last minute and you're going to sit down and smash your work out. So it's normal.

Um, but I think for me, I was just like thinking there's, uh, there's like three layers to the game. Like, I was just like, man, you know, you hit this number and then what's next? And then what's next? And just then talk to Davey about it. Um, there's there's it's an infinite game, man.

It's like Simon Sinek, you know, like infinite game where you you. And for me, I was like, I was saying, like, there's a skill of, um, you know, you say like, we're going to talk about why, which we'll get into, But like, I think I actually think there's a skill in contentment, like being content is a skill because I talk to guys like, you know, Vin and all these guys, these really successful business owners, they're not content. They're like, they're all super, man. I don't feel like I have an off. I'm like, man, what the hell is like, if I had your stuff, I'd be like, chilling and I'd be sailing in the sunset, right?

And then they think the same thing, and then they get there and they go. I don't think, and this is the thing I've realised is going through my journey is like, it never stops. It never. You've reached that one thing and you never stop to see what you've actually built. It's like that.

Uh, do you know that that little meme where there's a guy just digging through and there's, like, a wall of diamonds next to him? Right. So I go further than that, and I say, you know, most people, they think that you're digging, you're digging, you're digging, and you see this massive pile of diamond. But what you're actually doing is that you're digging, you're chucking the diamonds behind you, and you're keeping doing that. So you find small successes putting behind you, small successes pulling behind you.

And then no one really actually stand up and look around and see what you've actually built, what, what the where the success actually comes from. Right. Well, Noel and I had the same problem, like we would. We'd hit these milestones and he and I be like, good job, man. Back to work.

You know, good job. Well, we're talking about breaking records and stuff like that. And even now I'm like, oh guys, we're about to hit two mil plus. Yeah, everyone's like, back to work. Wow.

Like, you know what I mean? Wow. But, you know, I had to teach myself that as well, because, like I said, I say contentment is a skill. Like, we're going to do a team retreat in Bangkok with everybody in June because I said I have to actually specifically invest in celebrating wins along the way. Right.

And yeah, it's like we did one in Bali a couple of years ago, and it was incredible. And but we also learned some things along the way, you know, like how to do it, when to do it and things like that as well. Because actually, surprisingly, like not everyone has the same mindset. Like we went into Bali thinking like everyone's gonna love it and that sort of stuff. But then a lot of stuff kind of felt like they were under pressure to deliver on deadlines and then still have to go away for four days and things like that as well.

Right. So you're rewarding them, but then you're putting them under pressure as well because their mindset is completely different. Whereas my my mindset was like, guys we're going away for four days. Like if you have to do a, I don't know, three day week doing 80 hours, just get it done. Get it done.

Yeah. Just get it. Done. It's I think it's a natural, um, also a skill for us as business owners because like, for us being in the trenches doing all the dirty work, it's such, it's so second nature and we don't think anything of it. So if we have to put the all nighter in or have to put that 80 hour a week in to us, it's like, alright, we'll just get it done.

It is what it is. Yeah, it is what it is. If you want to get there, you need to do all these things. But it's not like, oh, I have to do it. Yeah.

Like there's no emotion to it. It's just. Yeah. That's it. There's, there's a, there's that stoicism to it and that's, uh, that's something I definitely learned over the years now.

Um, I love that you mentioned Team Retreat because, like, we're on track to make our first meal. Yay! Congrats, bro. I've never thought I would get here, but that's something I said to the team. Like the moment we hit a mile, we're going to body every every single one of us.

Like these guys here, the the, the, the guys in the Philippines. Let's fucking go. Right. Um, but yeah, there's definitely a quiet, uh, a quiet, um, what do I put it? Hardship about it.

You know what I mean? To hit the one mil. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely.

Like I was saying, um, and this is ties directly to the to one of the questions I want to ask you in terms of the bottleneck of the business. Right. Because 100,000 problem to $200,000 problem to $500,000 problem. Yeah. Totally different animal.

Yes. Different system, different mindset, different frameworks that goes into it. So talk to me about scaling to two mil and the six bottlenecks that you talk to me about. As I was saying, we're about to hit our first meal. Right.

And one of the things I realised is that $100,000 problem to a $200,000 problem, $500,000 problem, totally different animal, different systems, different people, different mindset. Talk to me about your journey because you you do talk about scaling to two metres and hitting that six bottlenecks that you've you've you've identified. Yeah. The biggest bottleneck for us was people. So I think people was people.

An agency business is extremely human intensive. Right. And it's like a sausage factory. You have, you know, a producer who comes up with the idea, who then has to hand it off to a videographer. The videographer then has to get it to the editor.

The editor then has to get it back to maybe the producer. The producer has to then review everything. There's got to go to the client. Client comes back. It's like a relay race, right?

Except every like it's like a relay. Every time you do a relay, you have to slow down to hand it over to each other. Yeah. And you have to have, you know, if we're using AI terminology, you have to have contextual window for everything. Like everyone needs to be in symphony like an orchestra for this whole thing to basically work.

And I think if you don't have people with the right work ethic, the right cultural fit, the right attitude. This thing doesn't work because everyone's running the race at a different pace. Everyone has different expectations of how things are handed over. And so I think for me, we had a real strong growth spurt and we went from like 400 K to like 1.3 mil in 12 months. It was huge.

It was like a three for X in the business, and I didn't really kind of spend as much time thinking about cultural fit within the business as I should have. And all it took was like one bad egg for this whole thing to really kind of fall apart as well, because it's I didn't really quite understand it. Like people say, it's like, oh, it can be insidious, it can cause issues and just be completely, completely open. It's like, that's what caused a lot of the problems here. And then what we ended up happening was because I was impatient and I just wanted to get bodies in.

We ended up having to restructure the business and it caused a lot of internal turmoil. And as a result, we didn't grow the following year at all. We stayed flat so we didn't go backwards. We stayed flat, but we had to do that because we had to basically go right where, like all the problems, when you scale, all the problems just get amplified. Like the existing problems, they were just not that big.

When you scale, they just amplify significantly because as a business owner, you spend all your time, you're like Spider-Man with the spider webs holding the whole thing together. Right? Right. That's what it feels like, right? Yeah.

And then it gets exposed. Because what happens is when you're when the business grows, you can't hold that all together. You rely on other people to join in and hold it together. But if those people don't aren't ready and they're not bought in and they're not on the same page as you, then you have an infinite amount of problems. So that was like one bottleneck.

The second bottleneck was I found myself. Trying to because of lead flow, we needed more lead flow and I didn't I just, you know, it was like a chicken egg situation. You know, when you're so busy delivering, you don't have time to market it and sell the business. Right. So I actually said to, no, you know, my business partner.

I said, dude, I need you on ops so that I can free myself up. But I also have a tendency to, like, just jam myself in and just get things done because I'm like, oh, it's easy. It's faster. I just do it myself. Oh, that's that's me.

Like, I'm I'm still in production. I shouldn't be, but I'm still in production and somehow like, yeah. And and that's a, that's a systems problem there too, which is probably one of the bottlenecks that you might want to talk about, right. Where, uh, you know, you don't have the proper briefing systems in place or people like, you know, I'm the bottleneck when it comes to like, the sales and marketing because I know exactly what what to do. So it's so much easier for me to jump on production and get something done.

So correct 100%. So yeah. And I think that what ended up happening was I made that realisation far too late. But what I said to my team and I did it this time because I was actually in Japan right now. Yeah.

Right. So his first holiday in three years, it's just workhorse. He's a workhorse. Workhorse is that I said to the team, I said usually what would happen in this situation is he'd go away and I'd just slot in and take over. And I have a general manager as well.

And I just said to the girls, who are my management team, I said, I'm not going to be involved in ops whatsoever, I said. Just assume I'm not going to reply to anything with clients. You take care of it. You're not sure you come to me. And what I used to do was I just for some.

I know that sounds stupid saying out loud. I would think that, but then I wouldn't tell them and I just expect them to know. Whereas now that I've verbalised them, they understand the assignment. It's like not giving them a clear brief. Do you think that that thing you just said that I'm smiling because it's actually I'm thinking about a lot of things right now, and I'm just like, I assume these people know about it, right?

So do you think that's like an innate, innate sort of problem that most business owners have, right. At least sub sub mil or like sub two mil kind of thing. Yeah. I just think it's when you're so say so good at what you do, you just, you just your brain goes towards, I'll sort it out myself, we'll just deal with this thing. But I, I had to make this choice of just going, people have to make mistakes.

You have to let go. We talked about this two days ago. And then the second thing is like, you're just going to give people a chance to fail. And then. And the visceral feeling of pissing a client off for making a mistake sticks with them, because that's how we learn.

We were like, oh my God, I've never, like, Touched the Flame, don't want to go near it again. So I think when you protect you, it's like a parents, like when you're too protective and you're helicopter parent, you're your staff, you're actually doing a disservice because they can never thrive and grow and help you grow the business 100%. I'll give you a good example of that. Like, uh, so, uh, last year we ended the year at a loss, like a $60,000 loss. Right?

Okay. And I was protecting everybody from from that, from that information. Nobody knew what the finances were. Only I had that that information. Right.

And then, uh, I think I spoke to one of my digital marketing agency friends, and he's like, I talk numbers to all of my staff. Do you know what I mean? And then the funny thing is that the moment you do that, you let it you you let it go and you see that, hey, it is a team, collective effort. Everything that you do in the business affects this number, not just me, right? It's not just a me thing.

So the moment we did that, like, since then, we grew like, 300%. Yeah. Wow. You know what I mean? So it was a fascinating thing because, like you as a business owner, like thinking yourself as a parent kind of thing, you just you feel like you need to protect the business.

You need to protect the people. They don't need to know this. It's not in their pay grade, but in reality, it's a team thing, right? Everybody in the business needs to have some sort of accountability, some sort of like knowing where they're going to go, what success looks like for them as well. Yeah.

Yeah. The only thing I would add to that is we, we share our numbers as well. So or at least our senior team knows how the company is performing financially, but also because we know our numbers so well, we now have I wouldn't call them KPIs, but we use them as like performance metrics to understand whether or not we're on track or not. I mean, is the power obviously tracking everything? It's like for us, it's like our editors need to be managing at least three x what they're being paid.

Right. That's just a metric that we have. So if you're not producing at that level right? And it may not be their fault. It might be just businesses, busy or clients or waiting for things.

But as long as they're on average hitting that number across a month, we're really happy because we know that if that leading indicator gets taken care of, the lagging indicator gets taken care of, which is profit. Hmm. How do you. There's the thing that I've actually been struggling with, like with the with editors and stuff like that is like, how do you measure? How do you measure the profitability of a editor?

Because it's like it's not a direct, you know, link to, to the actual, like monetary value. You know what I mean? Yeah. So we because we productize everything. We know how much a client pays us on a per video basis.

We know the, the editing segment, how much we're charging for it, and then we know how much the editor is spending. So say an editor spends 24 hours on an edit and that we're charging, let's say, $2,000 for an edit. We're then, um, tracking that through click up, which is what we use. And then we're pulling that data. Right now we use AI, but previously we're using click up itself.

We're pulling that data into a dashboard, and that dashboard refreshes on a daily basis and then gives us a bit of a traffic light system of, you know, who's holding up and who's, you know, doing their part. And we don't use it necessarily as a whipping tool. We we all look at it together as a team every week and we go, cool, what's going on here? And it's just an opportunity for us to address it. Whereas before we're just flying blind, we didn't know like and then and then you get to the end of the year and you're like, why are we not profitable?

And then you. Guys check out this month made so much money. And then I did another month. Like where's where did money go. Correct.

You can't explain it. Yeah. Yeah. No it's it's cool. It's actually very cool seeing like where you're at and then like, it's like things that I've learned along the way and then it just, uh, getting, getting validated kind of thing.

So, uh, one of the things that, uh, that really kind of resonated with me when you actually talked about, like, one of the bottlenecks being your offer. Right? Because here's the thing. As, um, as videographers, as a creative, uh, like a business. You're so accustomed to doing things in custom so that what that means is you take every single job that comes your way and you customise everything.

Talk to me about, like, how you saw that bottleneck and how you actually mitigate it. Yeah. I'd like to say that it was some crazy thing that I just was like, yeah, I've got this moment of clarity. I'm a product. It wasn't.

It was. Yeah. So for us, we specialise in YouTube. That's our leading offer. I think you need a number of conditions for offers to work.

The first one is obviously the macro conditions or the environment, which is do people even want this service. You know like YouTube just over I think the last maybe 24 months seems to be a thing that everyone now wants to do. Not for influencers, but actually for business owners. They realise the power of YouTube. And I think it might be because, you know, some of my sort of early stage clients, you know, guys like David Mack and these guys who've been doing it for, say, 5 or 6 years are well ahead of the curve, really.

People are seeing like what results are happening both on the channel but also on the business level. and people go, okay, there's there's something to this, right? And so market sophistication has to hit a certain level for this whole thing to work, because you might be selling something so far ahead. And I've seen this with like, you know, tech and AI, but it's not like something that people want because they just don't they can't wrap their heads too complicated. And just like it's a wild West at the moment.

Correct? Yeah. So that's one thing. And I think like timing is obviously very important. The second thing with offer is that, you know, we were always selling an outcome like YouTube is the vehicle.

Uh, when I get on sales calls and I explain our offer to clients, I spend a lot of time just explaining to them the psychology around how this all works. You know, we talk about, like, the amount of time someone spends with you, it equates to usually how hot a lead is, which then equates to obviously the amount of business that you do as well, the quality of the leads. So you're kind of talking to number one, the pain points. And oftentimes the best business owners that come to me are people who do, you know, cold ads. They, you know, they, they they have a hard time closing.

Yeah. They can feel the pain point. So if I'm speaking their language, great. And then what clients are paying for is they're paying. They're paying for predictability.

So they're paying for an outcome that is likely to happen. And the way that they basically make decisions and, you know, you and I are probably the same is we just go, have you done it for somebody like me, 100%. So my entire offer is like, this is what we do. This is how we do it. And this is the ones that we've been able to get results for, for clients.

Yeah. And they go yeah okay. Like let's go here. Just sign. Me up.

Sign me up. There's no there's no reason for them not to go ahead. So it's just a series of like de-risking their decision process 100%. And I think that's the power of like, the branding play here. And especially now in the age of AI, the whole personal branding thing.

Because like, you know, people buy from people. Right. Correct. So if you if they don't see you practising what you preach, if they don't see you being a the authority figure and also not seeing results, it's gonna be hard for people to want to, to to work with you. So definitely, uh, fascinating stuff.

Now, this is, uh, probably I want to understand a little bit about the boring business. Boring business? This this is another thing that that resonated with me when you actually like, uh, you are on, uh, up there talking about is that if you want to be successful, if you want to hardly scale to $2 million, you need to expect it to be boring as fuck. So fucking boring. So.

So I'll tell you a story. So I had, um, a friend of mine who is also a very successful business owner, and he runs a very, like, bleeding edge technology, like edtech company. And I was like, man, this is like I was like, oh, I wish I could do something like this. It was amazing. You know, you kind of changed the world, and you teach people how to learn and things like that.

And he's like, trust me, man, I'd rather run a boring ass business because there's so many problems when you're innovating like that. And I said, what do you mean? He said, I'm going to give you an example. He's like, I have a friend who is who sells wheelie bins in South Australia, makes $15 million a year selling wheelie bins. And basically he has a monopoly in the market in Okay.

I was like, what? Yeah. You know, like the bins you put outside. Yeah. He's basically the number one supplier for councils, for government, for houses, for Bunnings.

Everything. Right. And is the most boring business in the world. And then I. And then it was like I don't know how things happen, but it's like the following week I was, I was at my parents place and, um, one of our family friends was there.

And this is uncle that I've known for like 20 plus years. Right. Um, I never knew what he did. And then one day, I just said, my parents are like, what is he like? What does he do?

Because he's like, he doesn't work. Like he kind of goes around. I was like, yeah. He's like, you know, he's not. He doesn't wear nice things.

He's like pretty normal. Uncle. My parents go, oh, he's um, he's business actually. He imports. He's the number one coke supplier in Australia.

Core Coke is in like Coke like is in like cork boards. Cork. You know, anything that's cork related. He basically supplies, you know all those different types of cork products to again Wesfarmers like Bunnings Woollies whatever. Right.

Um $25 million business is the most boring goddamn business I've ever heard. And I was like, okay, there's something to this. And when I kind of looked into it further and understood it, all these guys are pretty much sausage factories. They are inputs in, outputs out. There's a process in between.

And then go. And then you get feedback. You go efficient. You build it and get better and better. I was like, okay, how do I do this for my business?

So then I go, okay, what are the conditions? What are the inputs that need to come in? It's like you need XYZ, you need these and these things. Right? When this happens then video comes out.

The other side. Is that that is that that design process thinking. Systems design thinking. Correct. Yes.

So like tell me more about that. So systems design thinking I actually learned from a guy called Charlie Morgan, very well known agency coach, um, out in the UK. And he, he was the first guy that exposed me to this. And he just said, like, you got to, you know, you can't think of a thing as, like this esoteric thing. You're like, everything has inputs.

Everything is outputs. You have processing between you then have feedback that goes back to the inputs to help improve that, and you get better and better at it. And then you have environment, which is what are the macro things that, you know, like I said, the conditions that you don't have control over and they all affect what the output is. And so what you can focus on is inputs and then feedback because you know, the output would take care of itself. So what I realised was I said, okay, if I'm doing a YouTube video for somebody, what are the things we have to get right?

It's topic selection, script writing, it's shooting, editing, filming, uh, editing, scripting. Um, copywriting, uploading. Yeah. And everything. I broke down basically into a recipe.

So if you think about making a sausage, what is it? What? All the ingredients. You need a. You need a casing.

Minced meat. You need a machine to, like, push the meat through that kind of thing. And then you need to twist it and you need like a Asian grandmother. So that's right along the way. Right.

So, so like when I tell people that analogy, they're like, oh, I get it. And I'm like, okay, well what's your sausage factory for your video? Now, sometimes things might change because maybe the input is different because the client is from a different industry and you're like, okay, well, when it's from a different industry, if we're making Italian sausages instead of lechon and. Then we'll just go there, maybe. What's the difference.

Right. And so that and then all we're doing is we're getting our feedback and we're going, okay, every time we have an accounting firm what are we doing. It's a little bit different to a broker, a little different a buyer's agent a little bit different to a builder. And then on the outside it just takes care of itself. So what does that look like for a like, you know, creative agency.

Because like there's there's a lot of variable that goes into it and you've managed to productize it. Right. But I know for a fact that there's a lot of agencies out there or a lot of like even a small time videography agency who are just looking to just do the most creative stuff out there because you can't really scale with that, right? You can't unless you have the right people. Like, let's just say you can find clones of yourself.

That's I actually. Yeah. Well, I have when clients come to me, they're not paying for creativity. My clients don't come to me. I want the most beautiful video.

I want to. I want my good side. You know, that sort of stuff. Clients come to me and they go, how do you make me money? Yeah.

Yeah, right. So I go, well, that's what the measuring stick is on. So in my opinion, we can almost. Someone actually said this to me the other day. I had a very well-known business owner come to me and he goes, so she wave has a visual signal.

And I'm like, what do you mean by visual signal? And he goes, when I, he goes when I browse YouTube. Because you guys have so many clients in YouTube, I know which one is a social wave client and I know. Which ones, not. You guys.

You guys have a you guys have a trait like a like a look and feel to you. That's a brand. That's a brand. He calls it visual Signal. And I said, oh, that's fascinating.

I said, he's like, yeah, based on just the thumbnail alone, I can tell it to you guys. And that that goes back to the systems design thinking. I'm like, yes, we're making tweaks and changes, but for the most part, everything is functional. Everything has a, uh, serves a particular purpose. And clients.

I do have clients who go, I don't want to look like everybody else. I'm like, that's fine, which which is why we do style frames and things like that. But we're not like spending a week putting together some concept or things like that, like my designers are taking, let's just call it an hour, an hour and a half to redevelop the style frames. Yeah. So that means you.

So that kind of means you turn away like a lot of clients. Then if they don't really fit that your talking head style videos that you guys do. Yeah we do. We qualify our clients quite a lot. Yeah.

And I think we're really fortunate. We're at a stage in the, you know, journey where people come to us for our reputation and they go, well, I know you've done work for this, this and the people. Can you do it for me as well? But if they're not in a position to do so financially, mindset wise, maybe expectations, you say, no. That's incredible man.

Like, I mean like just listening to your journey. It's just for me that's very inspirational because like, I'm like, oh, cool. There is a template. I see the light like we are heading the right way, you know? So, um, so, like, as I was saying to the team.

Like, everything comes full circle. And I was actually talking about this with you the other day as well. Like, we are only one degree away of, uh, one degree of separation, away from, like, knowing someone we can link with someone, um, that actually would take you to the next step or show you steps to, to take to, to get to the next step. So I find that super fascinating, right. So who is the man behind all of this who you can, like talk to me about that because, uh, there's a lot.

You've you've got a podcast like collaboration. You've made that pretty successful. Social. Pretty successful. Um, what's next for you?

Like, what do you do? What do you do? And I think I mentioned this in the, the, the chat and I opened it that way. You know, I showed three photos and I was like. By the way.

When I, when you showed me that, I'm like, that's a very thin way of. Like it is. Yeah. Right. I'm actually just a combination of people that I admire and I respect.

Right. And the reason why I show those photos and for context for everyone is things like the the photos, which is the photo of my family. One was my son, one was obviously my in-laws, and another one was obviously us going on holidays together. I'm. And it's funny because I just talking to a very good mate Davey on the phone.

He just he he joked around. He said to me he's like man you've been chilling for the last two years. I was like, what do you mean? I'm like, I feel like I've been working hard. And he's like, no, no, no.

He's like, you've been, you've been chilling because you've gone on like 3 or 4 holidays, you know, a year, like you're relaxing. He's like, he's still hustling. He's got a big business and I do. Um, because I understand what I want in life for me. I just wanted to, you know, and this is a very big thing I want to do things I love with people I love, and I want to be able to choose to do things when I want, where I want, with whoever I want.

I just want choice, I want freedom, and all I see business is, is just a mechanism to get me there. Yeah. So that's why I think saying to you at the start, I say being content is a goal for me. Because or a skill because I understand what the conditions are for me to get there, to do what I want. I don't, I don't like right now.

I'm like, I want to travel. Maybe next year I want to do something else. The year after, I want to. Like, I don't know that that thing is going to go. You definitely strike me as someone who's got, like, a lot of self-awareness, right?

And that's I think that's like another trait that you need to learn, you know? Yeah. Along with, like, being content like, like one of those things. Yeah. I think I think being content is a skill.

I think I've always been visibly self-aware. I'm not sure whether it's nature versus nurture, maybe the way I was brought up. Um, but I think I just inherently was always hyper aware of the environment and myself as well. I just think that for me, there's an opportunity cost to everything. If you're working in business, that's time away from family.

You know, if you're with family, that's something else, right? Who knows? Like, whatever it is, I just think, like, I understand what I enjoy life, and honestly, I, I say like I joke around two days ago, I was like, I don't know how to edit videos. Like, I don't know how to film. Not I.

Created. No creative bone in my body. But I actually love creating in the sense that, like, I have a vision of what I want things to be, but I can put the right people in place. I in the early days before Covid, really wanted to do just travel vlogging and make a living out of it. Yeah.

And, uh, I took a one year, like one year off just after quitting a career in hotel management in corporate and just travelled for a full year. And it was the best year of my life. When I still think about it now, I'm like, I don't want to go back to that. You know, I have I have autonomy, flexibility around my time with who I do it with, where I want to be in the world. Like, for me, that's always been the North Star and everything I build towards.

Is that in the in the words of Vin, the very wise Vin, uh, you're basically negotiating your reality, bro. That is what I'm trying to do. Yeah, yeah. No, I don't think I'm quite there yet, but I'm getting pretty close. What's missing?

Money. Yeah, I got a mortgage. Yeah, yeah. Still got debts to pay. I think that the business isn't completely non rely on me.

I would say it's probably like 90, 95% there. But there are choices that I make. Like I was saying to you guys, I haven't replaced sales because I actually really enjoy sales. So I get to choose what I love to do in the business and ultimately I yeah, most of the time it's like if I really wanted to take my foot off the pedal, I probably could. I'm just choosing not to at the moment.

So would you say your reason why is freedom of choice? Well, I think people call it financial freedom, which. Is. Your freedom. Yeah.

You know. Such a I felt like that's such a buzz word because, I mean, at the end of the day, what are you trying to build? You know, like, some people might be doing it for the ambition of, like, you know, being their guy to go to others. It's like they want to spend time more with family. Uh, yours is probably travel more and do more vlogs kind of thing.

So yeah, I mean, your reason why would be freedom. Yeah, I want the flexibility around it. Um. I don't want to stop working. I if anything, I think a lot of business owners just want to build.

Yeah, but they don't want the they don't want to be under duress building. Mhm. So what I mean by that is like the reason why you currently do business. And you probably make certain choices in business even if you don't like it is because it's what pays the bills. That's right.

But what if you are unencumbered and you can just build without timelines, deadlines, you know, pressure? That would be that would be beautiful, right? It's a beautiful scenario, right? I honestly, I can't think of, uh, you know, the whole the whole idea of, like, retiring. I can't even, like, fathom the idea of that because I don't think.

I don't think, um, I don't think that, uh, you know, running a business. You're looking for that at the end of the day. Now, there's a quote by, um, I believe it was James Clear. He says that, uh, entrepreneurship is a self-development exercise masquerading as a capitalist venture. Yeah.

So as you grow yourself, grow well with all the, you know, the combination of like coaches, mentors and whatnot and the experience that you have, the business will grow too. Totally. Right. So and if you have personal issues like problems and whatnot, the business will stall, right? And that's something that I've actually realised along along my journey.

I feel like I've probably grown more in the last five years of business than I have in the last 15 years in corporate. 100%. Yeah. Because the pressure cooker. Yeah, right.

It brings out your character. It forces you into it, backs you into a corner. Business is great. A vacuum into a corner, 100% making you come out swinging. Um, you know, talking to me, like, maybe two years ago before the event.

I wouldn't be able to talk to you guys. No, no, he's he's probably much better than me. Really? Oh. Come on.

No, it's just. It's not just you. It's not just. It's just like. Like me with everyone.

Like the moment I see the like them as an authority figure or like, putting them on a pedestal, I freeze. I can't even talk to them. One thing I do have to say, and I'm not blowing smoke up your ass. But as someone who's like, outside observing your growth as well, because I've known you now for quite a long time, but probably not, um, on a very, like, intimate level. Yeah.

Is, uh, I remember seeing you at Vine's workshop. That was like, um. Yeah. I'm going. Damn.

I was like, you were investing in yourself. Yeah. And then I saw you, Matt Purcell. Um, then obviously now we're like, hmm, from video agency OS and all these opportunities for growth that you're really, like, investing in your own growth. And I think that's one of the things that I notice is that for people that go out and they actually get it, whereas I think a lot of people, they just they make this, um, conclusion.

They go, oh, yeah, you know, I'm just can't do it. Yeah. You know, they identify as just that and they limit themselves. Yeah. Whereas you've been able to, you know, negotiate your own reality.

That's right. Yeah. There's the other side as well as like a like I talk freely about as well is having a therapist I see on a weekly basis. Oh, cool. That and I don't know if that's, that's the thing that with a lot of Asians.

But like people seem to be scared of that vulnerability. Right. And for me, being vulnerable allowed me to grow so much and actually deal with the traumas that I had in in the past and whatnot. I mean, like one of the stories that I could talk that really brought me who I to who I am now, is just the fact that, you know, I was financially abused by my dad, right? Put into $1.5 million in debt.

And that's how I started my business journey. So imagine, like, you know, if I'm able to overcome that, what else can I. You weren't even on the starting line. You were. Yeah, I.

Was like, like 5 or 10 steps back for most people. So I think that's, uh, I mean, I look at it now not as a, uh, like a reason to say I hate my dad or anything like that. It's more like he taught me something, you know, I'm not going to hate him for it. That's all he knew. You know, being an Asian dad, like I'm making the right decisions for for for my family.

You know what I mean? The intentions. Were good. Yeah, the intention was good. So you can't, you know, if you if you understand the intention behind any, uh, what people why people are doing something, it's like.

It's almost like it is what it is. You know what I mean? Your a father. Your kid is like, three years old now. Yes.

Yeah. Talk to me about the guilt. Because I feel. So much guilt. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So I try and take him with me wherever I go. He'll feed less guilt into me. Yeah. Especially when I'm on the road.

I try not to be on the road too much. I'm pretty good. I think there's no secret to it. There's, you know, and there's still problems. I still have arguments with my wife and things like that.

All the time. All the time. You know. And look, the beautiful thing about Iris, my wife, is she gets the assignment. You know why?

Because. And I'm sure your wife is the same. We've been together for 13 years, and we've been married for four years. Yeah. So she's been with me nine years.

Non married. She. When we were together, I was like, I don't know, not that I'm anything now, but I was like. I was like I had nothing right. I had no assets to my name.

Nothing, right. I was just I was just a dude who was working a full time job. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but it's just like she's seen me and the lifestyle we had then. And then we had that year off and, you know, travel, which was beautiful. It was amazing.

But still it was like a shoestring budget to now her not having to work. She can be a full time mother and she just online shops all day. Right. And she, um. You know, you made it when when she's doing that.

Well, yeah. This is probably one of the proudest achievements of my life is to be able to fundamentally retire my wife there, where she's able to have the lifestyle that she wants. She gets to care for the, you know, our son, and she has to do what she wants to do. Now she has that contrast so that when she sees me work my ass off, she understands what I'm building. It's not just for me.

It's not to fill some void in my gap. There's maybe a little bit of void, but I think she's able to see that every time we go on holidays, every time we do this and that, like, there is an absolute thing. Like it's always a family first thing. And we've always had that mutual understanding. So it doesn't mean that there's no guilt, because when there are weeks where I'm like, you know, last week I was in Adelaide within for three days, um, there was a lot of guilt.

I was a was two nights away. She never made me feel guilty. This is something that I've done. Um. And then sometimes I think I expressed that to her, and I said, oh, I feel bad, like going away.

And I said stuff she's always saying. She's always like, no, I get it. Like you're here to do the thing. And she says, if it's a problem, I'll let you know about it. So that mutual understanding really helps a lot.

But I think the other guilt is just to, you know, see your child develop and grow and you don't want to miss out on those key things. You hear those cliches about people, you know, missing out on their kids, you know, awards ceremony and that sort of stuff. I don't think it's that. I think it's more, you know, the day to day stuff, you know? I listen to your podcast about like, uh, like fatherhood as well.

If you've said, like, you know, parents actually count their children's days in months, so like, lives in months, not years kind of thing. And I find that that's so true. And like, where my guilt is coming from is that I have a 15 month old, um, baby at the moment. And then she's growing so, so, so, so fast. And like, the thing with me is like, yes, my business is like such a priority right now because I want to be able to to have that choice, that freedom and stuff like that and just try to figure out, like to navigate that.

And I don't think it's such a balancing act between like, what do you want to focus on right now? Because ultimately, if you focus on one thing, you have to sacrifice some things. So. So if I flip the book and ask you what is what is your why? Like what are you building towards?

I am building. So the the quote I say is like I want everybody to that has a stake in the individuals that touches it somehow to benefit. So I am doing I don't know if that's a bit of an ambition kind of thing, but I want everybody that is with this company, for this company to be able to grow, to be able to, to, to have some sort of success with me, to bring everybody up with me. That's my that's. My notes arc.

Yeah, yeah. Rising tide. Um, which kind of puts my business up top. Then my family's second, which is like a, like a bad way to, to put it. But it is my truth right now.

Yeah, yeah. And I think the thing I would add to that is I have that tendency as well, because I like the village effect. I like the oh my God, I. Don't know if it's an Asian thing. But maybe it's an Asian thing.

Um, that's why I started as Asian. I was like this community building thing. Um, I think I think maybe part of that is just growing up in Australia and a bit more of an isolation, you know, family, extended families overseas never kind of felt that I had a huge core family that maybe is part of that. Um, you know, that's probably more for a therapy session. But yeah, I think I think, yeah, you know, I think there is some truth to this because I realised I was like, I have to look after, you know, the typical thing, you've got to put on your oxygen mask for yourself first before you even put it on for other people.

Right. And I was doing the other way around. I was like putting on everyone else's mask. And I was like, in, in, you know, suffering, like suffocating myself in that process. So I became I had to become a little bit more selfish about people pleaser.

I'm a massive people pleaser. I had to I was like, I had to take like, get as much of the people pleasing out of my system as possible. Well, Right. And only then was I selfish. Was I able to then help other people as a result.

It's a weird it's a weird dichotomy there. It's a weird diversity. Yeah, yeah. Um, can man, like, I want to thank you for coming on. It's been a massive pleasure.

Where? What's next for you? Where are you going? And how can people find you? I'm not sure.

I'm not one of those guys who, you know, people do the ten year plan. The five year plan? I don't even have a three month plan, right? I don't. Right.

Because I think I'm. I am a bit of a nomad. I understand directionally where I'm heading. So if I'm going north is where I'm heading. As long as I'm directionally heading north, sometimes I'm veering off path, sometimes I'm back on path.

But as long as I understand where I'm going. So I think for me, going back to the why, I know directly I always want to build. I don't want to do it under duress. That's kind of part of the motivation of what I'm doing right now, is that I'm pretty much at a stage where I can now start to make some real offensive decisions. I'm not only got my own business, I'm starting to build joint ventures and partnerships with others, and I see this, you know, a lot is people then move into collectives or groups of businesses, right?

So that's kind of where my brain heads towards. I'm like, yes, I can keep building the agency as it is, but it's at a stage where I'm like, okay, cool. I think it's in a good spot. And now I'm just going, cool. How do I use my skills, which I've now developed over the last 5 or 6 years, to then build something that negotiates my own reality even further as well, which is do things I love with people I love.

Freedom to do what I want, when I want to, wherever I want to as well. And we'll see. I don't know how long it will take, but I'm also not putting a timeline because I feel like, you know, the last thing I'll say is like expectation is the by-product of oh, sorry. Disappointment is the by-product of the expectations. So I'm just going.

With no expectations. I have a loose idea of what I want, and if I hit it, I'm like, great. If I don't, that's cool. Let's keep going. And that's just how I roll.

And with that, Ken. Huang from. Social Wavelength. Thanks for having me. Oh, Brian.